Jason wrote:Seb, let's say you're correct about David Duke applauding Trump. Why are you using that as a springboard to slam Trump? Who gives a fuck what David Duke has to say? Trump publicly called David Duke a piece of shit for the last 20 fucking years. Whatever Duke says is complete horse shit, but you will preach his words so long as he is praising someone you try so hard to hate.
Because I think Duke is right this time, sadly. I think Trump has done more to advance the White Supremacosts cause and ease into the mainstream than any president before. It was easy to just denounce the racists as racists and call it a day. Instead he called those fighting racists equal to the racists themselves and created an equivalence between the two groups. The most telling thing he said in that conference was something about "white supremacists or neo Nazis or whatever you guys are calling them" because that basically dismisses it as not being a group but rather a phony label put there by the fake News. Which is how they now get to spin it. They can say there was one bad guy who took it too far by driving his car into people. But the rest of the group, are fine people.
When everyone rejects the fringe left and right than we can start to get somewhere. If you don't treat both equally you embolden one or the other. It's just that simple
It really isn't. One group actively hates black people and wants to get back to a all-white ideal. The other wants to shout down those racists. That's not the same.
My best analogy here is of two dads took their kids to the park and two pedophiles came to advocate sex with kids. If one pedophile attacked a dad for saying fuck off, and one dad attacked a pedophile for saying I want to fuck your kids, there's been violence on both sides. But morally there's only one side standing for indefensible egregious harm to be visited upon our society. The other is standing up to their monstrous ideals.
The fact that punches fly is irrelevant to the reason two groups met.
What a distorted view of the counter protestors you have been presented with by the media. There were many who showed up to peacefully protest, but also many who are opportunists looking for violence and basically professional protestors.
if peaceful protestors stand by when things start to become violent, including to the point of killing someone, and don't seem to care afterward. is there a problem?
david duke, richard spencer are probably among the people you cite as "professional protestors" but they are also public figures that represent hate and bigotry toward everyone who isn't what they perceive to be "white". they should be condemned, non-violently. and i'm not saying that hasn't happened. but don't pretend that this is just about violence.
Jason wrote:Seb, let's say you're correct about David Duke applauding Trump. Why are you using that as a springboard to slam Trump? Who gives a fuck what David Duke has to say? Trump publicly called David Duke a piece of shit for the last 20 fucking years. Whatever Duke says is complete horse shit, but you will preach his words so long as he is praising someone you try so hard to hate.
Because I think Duke is right this time, sadly. I think Trump has done more to advance the White Supremacosts cause and ease into the mainstream than any president before. It was easy to just denounce the racists as racists and call it a day. Instead he called those fighting racists equal to the racists themselves and created an equivalence between the two groups. The most telling thing he said in that conference was something about "white supremacists or neo Nazis or whatever you guys are calling them" because that basically dismisses it as not being a group but rather a phony label put there by the fake News. Which is how they now get to spin it. They can say there was one bad guy who took it too far by driving his car into people. But the rest of the group, are fine people.
When everyone rejects the fringe left and right than we can start to get somewhere. If you don't treat both equally you embolden one or the other. It's just that simple
It really isn't. One group actively hates black people and wants to get back to a all-white ideal. The other wants to shout down those racists. That's not the same.
My best analogy here is of two dads took their kids to the park and two pedophiles came to advocate sex with kids. If one pedophile attacked a dad for saying fuck off, and one dad attacked a pedophile for saying I want to fuck your kids, there's been violence on both sides. But morally there's only one side standing for indefensible egregious harm to be visited upon our society. The other is standing up to their monstrous ideals.
The fact that punches fly is irrelevant to the reason two groups met.
What a distorted view of the counter protestors you have been presented with by the media. There were many who showed up to peacefully protest, but also many who are opportunists looking for violence and basically professional protestors.
if peaceful protestors stand by when things start to become violent, including to the point of killing someone, and don't seem to care afterward. is there a problem?
david duke, richard spencer are probably among the people you cite as "professional protestors" but they are also public figures that represent hate and bigotry toward everyone who isn't what they perceive to be "white". they should be condemned, non-violently. and i'm not saying that hasn't happened. but don't pretend that this is just about violence.
When is the last time you have seen a Republican political candidate accept an endorsement from David Duke? They all think he is a piece of shit.
The ONLY reason he is still a public figure is because the media props up his name in an attempt to smear conservatives. They ask Republicabs all the time about him to try to brainwash the public into thinking there is a connection.
Drawing attention to him gives him power. Why do left wingers continue trying to give him power? Because it is not about making people's lives better, it is about power and money.
Foo wrote:
When is the last time you have seen a Republican political candidate accept an endorsement from David Duke? They all think he is a piece of shit.
The ONLY reason he is still a public figure is because the media props up his name in an attempt to smear conservatives. They ask Republicabs all the time about him to try to brainwash the public into thinking there is a connection.
Drawing attention to him gives him power. Why do left wingers continue trying to give him power? Because it is not about making people's lives better, it is about power and money.
i wasn't speaking about the politicians. i feel that trump did condemn it. i was speaking toward the people who were at the event, who were peacefully protesting as you said. they did nothing when things became violent from their own side. and they did not show remorse after the fact, even when a protestor on their side drove his car into a crowd and killed someone.
also, on this notion of "giving power", if condemning david duke by name gives him power. does condemning antifa by name give them power? or isis, or black lives matter or any other group or individual that you feel is a problem?
Jason wrote:Seb, let's say you're correct about David Duke applauding Trump. Why are you using that as a springboard to slam Trump? Who gives a fuck what David Duke has to say? Trump publicly called David Duke a piece of shit for the last 20 fucking years. Whatever Duke says is complete horse shit, but you will preach his words so long as he is praising someone you try so hard to hate.
Because I think Duke is right this time, sadly. I think Trump has done more to advance the White Supremacosts cause and ease into the mainstream than any president before. It was easy to just denounce the racists as racists and call it a day. Instead he called those fighting racists equal to the racists themselves and created an equivalence between the two groups. The most telling thing he said in that conference was something about "white supremacists or neo Nazis or whatever you guys are calling them" because that basically dismisses it as not being a group but rather a phony label put there by the fake News. Which is how they now get to spin it. They can say there was one bad guy who took it too far by driving his car into people. But the rest of the group, are fine people.
When everyone rejects the fringe left and right than we can start to get somewhere. If you don't treat both equally you embolden one or the other. It's just that simple
It really isn't. One group actively hates black people and wants to get back to a all-white ideal. The other wants to shout down those racists. That's not the same.
My best analogy here is of two dads took their kids to the park and two pedophiles came to advocate sex with kids. If one pedophile attacked a dad for saying fuck off, and one dad attacked a pedophile for saying I want to fuck your kids, there's been violence on both sides. But morally there's only one side standing for indefensible egregious harm to be visited upon our society. The other is standing up to their monstrous ideals.
The fact that punches fly is irrelevant to the reason two groups met.
What a distorted view of the counter protestors you have been presented with by the media. There were many who showed up to peacefully protest, but also many who are opportunists looking for violence and basically professional protestors.
It isn't distorted. Even with your addendum of opportunistic assholes on the left showing up, it isn't equivalent and it doesn't change Trump condoning racism.
zombie wrote:i'll never understand how supremacist bigots will take denouncing of supremacist bigots as a win. but they drove a car into a crowd of people. they killed a girl. and there was no remorse for it, after the fact. i hope that everyone who is even a little bit decent turns on them and let's them know (non-violently or at least not unprovoked) that they are just garbage. if you feel like someone is beneath you because of their skin color, or religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, fuck you. you're shit. you should be denounced and condemned and resisted and arrested when you commit or incite violence and harm to decent people.
Because if you're only part of the problem and some of you are not them your intentions no longer matter. Trump basically says racist views are cool. Just don't punch dudes.
how do you deal with racist or bigoted hate speech?
Condemn it in all its forms including their assembly or protests, their ideology, the very things they stand for. Not just when they punch someone.
okay. trump didn't say it clearly enough in your mind. have i?
On the contrary Trump clearly articulated his world view as repugnant. You have not done so in my mind. You've actively condemned the right in full in my mind.
zombie wrote:i'll never understand how supremacist bigots will take denouncing of supremacist bigots as a win. but they drove a car into a crowd of people. they killed a girl. and there was no remorse for it, after the fact. i hope that everyone who is even a little bit decent turns on them and let's them know (non-violently or at least not unprovoked) that they are just garbage. if you feel like someone is beneath you because of their skin color, or religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, fuck you. you're shit. you should be denounced and condemned and resisted and arrested when you commit or incite violence and harm to decent people.
Because if you're only part of the problem and some of you are not them your intentions no longer matter. Trump basically says racist views are cool. Just don't punch dudes.
how do you deal with racist or bigoted hate speech?
Condemn it in all its forms including their assembly or protests, their ideology, the very things they stand for. Not just when they punch someone.
okay. trump didn't say it clearly enough in your mind. have i?
On the contrary Trump clearly articulated his world view as repugnant. You have not done so in my mind. You've actively condemned the right in full in my mind.
politicians will do what they do. so, let's not wait for them or look to them. let's do it, as we can ourselves.
zombie wrote:i'll never understand how supremacist bigots will take denouncing of supremacist bigots as a win. but they drove a car into a crowd of people. they killed a girl. and there was no remorse for it, after the fact. i hope that everyone who is even a little bit decent turns on them and let's them know (non-violently or at least not unprovoked) that they are just garbage. if you feel like someone is beneath you because of their skin color, or religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, fuck you. you're shit. you should be denounced and condemned and resisted and arrested when you commit or incite violence and harm to decent people.
Because if you're only part of the problem and some of you are not them your intentions no longer matter. Trump basically says racist views are cool. Just don't punch dudes.
how do you deal with racist or bigoted hate speech?
Condemn it in all its forms including their assembly or protests, their ideology, the very things they stand for. Not just when they punch someone.
okay. trump didn't say it clearly enough in your mind. have i?
On the contrary Trump clearly articulated his world view as repugnant. You have not done so in my mind. You've actively condemned the right in full in my mind.
politicians will do what they do. so, let's not wait for them or look to them. let's do it, as we can ourselves.
That would be nice. But without political discourse I don't trust the process to change.
zombie wrote:i'll never understand how supremacist bigots will take denouncing of supremacist bigots as a win. but they drove a car into a crowd of people. they killed a girl. and there was no remorse for it, after the fact. i hope that everyone who is even a little bit decent turns on them and let's them know (non-violently or at least not unprovoked) that they are just garbage. if you feel like someone is beneath you because of their skin color, or religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, fuck you. you're shit. you should be denounced and condemned and resisted and arrested when you commit or incite violence and harm to decent people.
Because if you're only part of the problem and some of you are not them your intentions no longer matter. Trump basically says racist views are cool. Just don't punch dudes.
how do you deal with racist or bigoted hate speech?
Condemn it in all its forms including their assembly or protests, their ideology, the very things they stand for. Not just when they punch someone.
okay. trump didn't say it clearly enough in your mind. have i?
On the contrary Trump clearly articulated his world view as repugnant. You have not done so in my mind. You've actively condemned the right in full in my mind.
politicians will do what they do. so, let's not wait for them or look to them. let's do it, as we can ourselves.
That would be nice. But without political discourse I don't trust the process to change.
okay. you can have discourse outside of trump. i was not advocating violence, if that wasn't clear with previous posts.
zombie wrote:i'll never understand how supremacist bigots will take denouncing of supremacist bigots as a win. but they drove a car into a crowd of people. they killed a girl. and there was no remorse for it, after the fact. i hope that everyone who is even a little bit decent turns on them and let's them know (non-violently or at least not unprovoked) that they are just garbage. if you feel like someone is beneath you because of their skin color, or religion, or gender, or sexual orientation, fuck you. you're shit. you should be denounced and condemned and resisted and arrested when you commit or incite violence and harm to decent people.
Because if you're only part of the problem and some of you are not them your intentions no longer matter. Trump basically says racist views are cool. Just don't punch dudes.
how do you deal with racist or bigoted hate speech?
Condemn it in all its forms including their assembly or protests, their ideology, the very things they stand for. Not just when they punch someone.
okay. trump didn't say it clearly enough in your mind. have i?
On the contrary Trump clearly articulated his world view as repugnant. You have not done so in my mind. You've actively condemned the right in full in my mind.
politicians will do what they do. so, let's not wait for them or look to them. let's do it, as we can ourselves.
That would be nice. But without political discourse I don't trust the process to change.
okay. you can have discourse outside of trump. i was not advocating violence, if that wasn't clear with previous posts.
Hopefully you're right but it's hard to fight it when people at the very top are fighting against you. Mixed messages.
showa58taro wrote:
Hopefully you're right but it's hard to fight it when people at the very top are fighting against you. Mixed messages.
there is likely to always be some level of mixed message. we don't all have the same opinion and viewpoint. but i don't see it from trump in this regard. just not loud enough or often enough. and again, we can do it ourselves. we can work for change that we wanna see.
