It (2017)

[Foo]

Obviously, the Exorcist is about as far away from safe and generic as you can get. It was the 1970's and an adolescent girl is pounding a cross into her vagina until she is drenched in blood, cursing at priests, and graphically vomiting on screen.

I am talking 100%, purely, absolutely, distinctly, specifically about financial success and how it influences the industry. Not artsy fartsy bullshit about what movie is better or most stylish. Just what moves the needle within the industry and how it influences future greenlighting and marketing.

When you get hung up on what movies you like better, it has nothing to do with my premise. McDonalds does not make the best burgers, but the make the most burgers. They are needle movers in their industry for that reason. Some dude in a shitty diner somewhere is probably making the best burgers in the world, but he is not a needle mover.

Also, influence can take many forms. For instance, Deadpool was a needle mover last year. The financial success meant more R-rated films will hit theaters. It will influence the marketing of new films. It will influence tone of films and scripts that are green lit. The combined success of Guardians and Deadpool mean more b-level superhero movies will be green lit.

When we look at the Exorcist as a Tier 1, simply consider the portion of the nation who went and paid money to see it. Less population at the time, yet MANY more tickets sold. It dominated the public conversation in a way that only a few movies ever have. It loomed in the minds of industry decision makers for a very long time.

Again, just because something is not tier 1 does not mean it is not influential and a huge hit in its own right. Halloween is on a lower tier but still influential. F13 is a tier or two below Halloween, but still influential. NOES is a tier below F13 but still influential.

I hate the Scream movies, but they were massive influences on what got made for the better part of a decade. Tone, marketing, casting, etc. in that era were all influenced by the success of the Scream movies.

i'm not getting hung up on whether i like the movie or not. the exorcist is the highest grossing pure horror, after adjusting for inflation. and i agree that the exorcist is not safe. but your words were ""firmly mainstream", that seems to be something to do with the content of the movie? you've said before that friday the 13th needed the edits to appeal to a large audience as example. so when you said "firmly mainstream", i thought you were talking something other than just numbers and profit?

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

[zombie]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

[Reign in Blood]

Saw it tonight. Was pretty good. My main gripe is just the opening scene, introducing Pennywise. In the original, Pennywise (while obviously creepy) genuinely came off as a clown trying to win over the trust of an unsuspecting child. Maybe it's just Curry being a million times better, but the original captured the essence of Pennywise perfectly. Go back and rewatch the original Georgie scene. Listen to Curry and the way he's behaving when he's trying to win over his trust, then observe the way he reacts when Georgie finally gives him his trust and asks "do they float". You can totally feel the excitement in Pennywise's voice of the hell he is about to unleash on this fucking kid. The makers of this movie definitely did not grasp that scene at all. That scene is so much more than a creepy clown pulling a kid into the sewers. I thought the movie was in trouble at this point. But it actually did really well the rest of the way. My remaining complaints are mostly just nitpicky shit that comes with every modern horror flick. Overuse of CGI, the super loud drum pounding at every intense moment. Shit like that. Still did a good job feeling creepy and capturing the camaraderie of youngsters at that age.

Overall, most definitely prefer the original part 1, but the remake didn't shatter my hopes like I feared it could. About a 7/10 feels right.

I was saying that just from the trailer, the luring Georgie in vs. being creepy from the jump.

Could a big part of that be because this is a time compressed remake with a marketing campaign centered on the clown? Audiences at that time were discovering the clown, audiences this time already know the motives are sinister.

Yeah, could be because the marketing was more on him, they said fuck it we will make him as creepy and scary as possible. For me it's more about Pennywise being smart. Georgie is young and naive enough not to think just talking to a clown in a sewer drain alone is batshit, but OG Penny lured him in with charm and charisma, no kid is talking to the remake Penny.

[Reign in Blood]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Amityville only has being a big success to speak to. It didn't have the influence, imitators, changed the way things were marketed etc. that he's been talking about. It's tier 2 purely from financial success and moving the needle by attracting audiences. That's it, end of discussion!

[Foo]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Let me ask you this: why do you think movies are made by movie studios? What movie is more likely to get a sequel, a bad movie that a lot of people went to see and made a lot of money, or a great movie that no one went to see and lost a lot of money?

If a producer is pitching a movie to a studio, do you think the ability to market and sell the movie to audiences is a small part or a big part of that conversation? Do you think when they are considering financing a film, they talk more about money or the cinematography?

[zombie]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Amityville only has being a big success to speak to. It didn't have the influence, imitators, changed the way things were marketed etc. that he's been talking about. It's tier 2 purely from financial success and moving the needle by attracting audiences. That's it, end of discussion!

then why is it about "influence", instead of just box office or financial success? influence adds a different level to it.

and sorry, if i'm being a bother, as it seems that way from the post.

[zombie]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Let me ask you this: why do you think movies are made by movie studios? What movie is more likely to get a sequel, a bad movie that a lot of people went to see and made a lot of money, or a great movie that no one went to see and lost a lot of money?

If a producer is pitching a movie to a studio, do you think the ability to market and sell the movie to audiences is a small part or a big part of that conversation? Do you think when they are considering financing a film, they talk more about money or the cinematography?

all of that is hypothetical. i was asking for real world solid indicators of the influence. we can argue the motives behind the scenes all we want. a movie can be influential on that level for any number of reasons. ginger snaps 2 influenced orphan black. is it an influential movie? no.

[Foo]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

[Foo]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Let me ask you this: why do you think movies are made by movie studios? What movie is more likely to get a sequel, a bad movie that a lot of people went to see and made a lot of money, or a great movie that no one went to see and lost a lot of money?

If a producer is pitching a movie to a studio, do you think the ability to market and sell the movie to audiences is a small part or a big part of that conversation? Do you think when they are considering financing a film, they talk more about money or the cinematography?

all of that is hypothetical. i was asking for real world solid indicators of the influence. we can argue the motives behind the scenes all we want. a movie can be influential on that level for any number of reasons. ginger snaps 2 influenced orphan black. is it an influential movie? no.

You are looking for base level influences on the art. Hey look, that guy is also wearing a white mask and stabbing teenagers! Just like Halloween!

That is a level of influence but I am looking at the industry. Is McDonalds influential because a lot of places have put thousand island dressing on a burger? Yes. Are they influential because they inspired other burger chains to appear? Yes. Their industry shaking contributions are marketing, systems, financial model, etc.

[zombie]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

[zombie]

You are looking for base level influences on the art. Hey look, that guy is also wearing a white mask and stabbing teenagers! Just like Halloween!

That is a level of influence but I am looking at the industry. Is McDonalds influential because a lot of places have put thousand island dressing on a burger? Yes. Are they influential because they inspired other burger chains to appear? Yes. Their industry shaking contributions are marketing, systems, financial model, etc.

i don't think you can necessarily look at a food business in the same way as piece of art like a movie. unless it's something like star wars that becomes a huge brand with the movies as the starting point.

[Foo]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

[Reign in Blood]

The numbers show the exorcist to be as main stream as Star Wars, because it attracted that level of audience. Main stream is about consumption not content. Content can influence what lands into the mainstream. For F13, the censors made the movie better, and made it perform better.

so you're talking just numbers, as far as "purely mainstream". "made the movie better" is subjective. "made it perform better" is all you can argue, unless you wanna start on how the film appeals to any given person.

given that you equate influence squarely with box office success, can you point to the influence that amityville horror (as the top of the tier 2 influencers) has on the genre vs. something like a nightmare on elm street or halloween or friday the 13th?

Amityville only has being a big success to speak to. It didn't have the influence, imitators, changed the way things were marketed etc. that he's been talking about. It's tier 2 purely from financial success and moving the needle by attracting audiences. That's it, end of discussion!

then why is it about "influence", instead of just box office or financial success? influence adds a different level to it.

and sorry, if i'm being a bother, as it seems that way from the post.

lol, no bother at all. I kinda like watching you two do this dance after the music has ended.

[Foo]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

[zombie]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

[Foo]

You are looking for base level influences on the art. Hey look, that guy is also wearing a white mask and stabbing teenagers! Just like Halloween!

That is a level of influence but I am looking at the industry. Is McDonalds influential because a lot of places have put thousand island dressing on a burger? Yes. Are they influential because they inspired other burger chains to appear? Yes. Their industry shaking contributions are marketing, systems, financial model, etc.

i don't think you can necessarily look at a food business in the same way as piece of art like a movie. unless it's something like star wars that becomes a huge brand with the movies as the starting point.

Ding Ding! We have finally discovered the issue. You think that some how it is fundamentally different. It isn't.

They share far more in common than they differ. In the end, it is about marketing towards public consumption. It is about getting people to take action to consume the product, and producing products at a level of profitability that the public will buy.

[Foo]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

[zombie]

Ding Ding! We have finally discovered the issue. You think that some how it is fundamentally different. It isn't.

They share far more in common than they differ. In the end, it is about marketing towards public consumption. It is about getting people to take action to consume the product, and producing products at a level of profitability that the public will buy.

yeah, i get that movies are marketed to the public. trailers and tv spots and interviews and even awards shows. etc. i don't know how to point to indicators on that level. it's trickier. and it's far less to do with the public. but if you can show me, go ahead?

[Reign in Blood]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

Based on how you've laid it out, the fuck it isn't. Amityville doesn't even sniff the Exorcists jock.

[Reign in Blood]

Just came across something very topical for this discussion.