It (2017)

[Reign in Blood]

Speaking of game changers...

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/it-bo ... 202553361/

[zombie]

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

let me ask, can the success of movies, grow or diminish over time? you mentioned "mainstream". as in, i assume mainstream consciousness? can a movie drop away from that, even though it's initial success has it there, as a historical fact?

[Foo]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

Based on how you've laid it out, the fuck it isn't. Amityville doesn't even sniff the Exorcists jock.

Really you have a choice of putting Exorcist on its own tier, including jaws into tier 1 as a horror, or lowering tier 1 and making the exorcist and extreme outlier on the high end. None are wrong, imo.

[zombie]

Speaking of game changers...

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/it-bo ... 202553361/

very cool. here's hoping that kind of success keeps up.

[Foo]

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

let me ask, can the success of movies, grow or diminish over time? you mentioned "mainstream". as in, i assume mainstream consciousness? can a movie drop away from that, even though it's initial success has it there, as a historical fact?

Perception certainly changes, but success not so much. Ask a person under 40 to name the top movies of all time. Wanna bet they do not name Doctor Zhivago? Ask a person under 30 to name retailers that were highly influential. Think they name Sears?

Also, with media we have lost so many movies. Many of the drive-in and regional films are gone as they never made it to tape. Then some of the VHS does not make it to DVD, and so on. In reality, probably a small percentage of movies made outside of the big studios survived.

It changes more within the public than within the industry. Just like a young wrestling fan is more likely to name a mid-card WWF wrestler from their childhood and ignore a massive star from a different era. Vince McMahon or Jim Ross would be more apt to recognize the original Shiek or Bullet Bob Armstrong than a current fan.

[zombie]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

i don't think it's superficial, but that shows the influence of a movie pretty directly. it is not the only influence, but without that, it's all about business. this actor or director signed this deal because of this movie kind of thing. that doesn't really make an influence culturally, in my opinion. it's behind the scenes influence. it's not mainstream influence.

[Reign in Blood]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

Based on how you've laid it out, the fuck it isn't. Amityville doesn't even sniff the Exorcists jock.

Really you have a choice of putting Exorcist on its own tier, including jaws into tier 1 as a horror, or lowering tier 1 and making the exorcist and extreme outlier on the high end. None are wrong, imo.

Honestly, I would put stuff like the Exorcist and Star Wars above any tiers. They are beyond game changers like Deadpool, but actual cultural phenomenons, that unless you live under a rock in Swahili, people even generations later know of, and even if you haven't seen them, know a lot about because of their influence and impact on pop culture. All of that coupled with mind blowing financial success. Whereas Titanic and Avatar would be tier 1's, as I don't think they live up to everything I said out of mind blowing financial success.

[Foo]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

i don't think it's superficial, but that shows the influence of a movie pretty directly. it is not the only influence, but without that, it's all about business. this actor or director signed this deal because of this movie kind of thing. that doesn't really make an influence culturally, in my opinion. it's behind the scenes influence. it's not mainstream influence.

Where do you think behind the scenes influence eventually appears?

Let's look at The Green Mile. That movie was solely made for two reasons:

1. Tom Hanks agreed to star in it
2. The Shawshank Redemption became a massive hit on cable TV

The Green Mile becoming a hit meant those involved got more latitude. The Mist gets made. The Walking Dead gets made.

[Foo]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

Based on how you've laid it out, the fuck it isn't. Amityville doesn't even sniff the Exorcists jock.

Really you have a choice of putting Exorcist on its own tier, including jaws into tier 1 as a horror, or lowering tier 1 and making the exorcist and extreme outlier on the high end. None are wrong, imo.

Honestly, I would put stuff like the Exorcist and Star Wars above any tiers. They are beyond game changers like Deadpool, but actual cultural phenomenons, that unless you live under a rock in Swahili, people even generations later know of, and even if you haven't seen them, know a lot about because of their influence and impact on pop culture. All of that coupled with mind blowing financial success. Whereas Titanic and Avatar would be tier 1's, as I don't think they live up to everything I said out of mind blowing financial success.

I think that is where outliers come into play. Everyone knows that those are once in a lifetime. At a certain point, you acknowledge that with financial decisions. If Star Wars does 80% as much business, it is still plenty to have Tier 1 influence. I don't think the extra millions are changing much at that point and are just gravy, as you can't count on that level hit to happen again.

[zombie]

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

let me ask, can the success of movies, grow or diminish over time? you mentioned "mainstream". as in, i assume mainstream consciousness? can a movie drop away from that, even though it's initial success has it there, as a historical fact?

Perception certainly changes, but success not so much. Ask a person under 40 to name the top movies of all time. Wanna bet they do not name Doctor Zhivago? Ask a person under 30 to name retailers that were highly influential. Think they name Sears?

Also, with media we have lost so many movies. Many of the drive-in and regional films are gone as they never made it to tape. Then some of the VHS does not make it to DVD, and so on. In reality, probably a small percentage of movies made outside of the big studios survived.

It changes more within the public than within the industry. Just like a young wrestling fan is more likely to name a mid-card WWF wrestler from their childhood and ignore a massive star from a different era. Vince McMahon or Jim Ross would be more apt to recognize the original Shiek or Bullet Bob Armstrong than a current fan.

well, definitely "top movie of all time changers" over time. pinocchio was in the top 40, until home alone came along. that's not even just perception. but does that mean that pinocchio is less successful?

industry guys, even newer ones, are likely going to be aware of the movies (or wrestlers) than a fan of that industry is. that's always gonna be the case.

[Foo]

Consider this. If The Dark Tower is made a year sooner and bombs, maybe It does not get the same budget or marketing, and maybe not made at all.

[Reign in Blood]

When you are talking about the high level influencers you have to think more meta.

What is the legacy of McDonalds? If you think it is hamburgers, you are missing the point. What is the legacy of Starbucks? If you think it is coffee you are missing the point.

Tier 1 influencers are industry shakers, game changers. What did the success of The Exorcist and Amityville mean?

i thought amityville was tier 2? maybe i'm remembering wrong.

the influence of the exorcist can be pointed to with other religious horror films, such as the omen. of possibly other types of possession movies like the evil dead. and even imitators like the exorcism of emily rose or stigmata. not to mention the sequels and parody movies like repossessed. solid real world influence that you can point to.

it also did help careers and influence things behind the scenes, without a doubt.

Tier 2 is still an extremely high level few films get to. Don't downplay it.

i'm not downplaying it.

"Tier 1 influencers... The Exorcist and Amityville" <--- just wanted to clarify.

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

Based on how you've laid it out, the fuck it isn't. Amityville doesn't even sniff the Exorcists jock.

Really you have a choice of putting Exorcist on its own tier, including jaws into tier 1 as a horror, or lowering tier 1 and making the exorcist and extreme outlier on the high end. None are wrong, imo.

Honestly, I would put stuff like the Exorcist and Star Wars above any tiers. They are beyond game changers like Deadpool, but actual cultural phenomenons, that unless you live under a rock in Swahili, people even generations later know of, and even if you haven't seen them, know a lot about because of their influence and impact on pop culture. All of that coupled with mind blowing financial success. Whereas Titanic and Avatar would be tier 1's, as I don't think they live up to everything I said out of mind blowing financial success.

I think that is where outliers come into play. Everyone knows that those are once in a lifetime. At a certain point, you acknowledge that with financial decisions. If Star Wars does 80% as much business, it is still plenty to have Tier 1 influence. I don't think the extra millions are changing much at that point and are just gravy, as you can't count on that level hit to happen again.

True, but the outliers, once in a lifetime thing is where I think you have to put them beyond tiers and where this discussion got bogged downed/side-tracked. Saying the Exorcist is tier 1 and Amityville is tier 2 immediately begs what the fuck? You have to establish a more realistic baseline than the lightning in a bottle, broseph.

[zombie]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

i don't think it's superficial, but that shows the influence of a movie pretty directly. it is not the only influence, but without that, it's all about business. this actor or director signed this deal because of this movie kind of thing. that doesn't really make an influence culturally, in my opinion. it's behind the scenes influence. it's not mainstream influence.

Where do you think behind the scenes influence eventually appears?

Let's look at The Green Mile. That movie was solely made for two reasons:

1. Tom Hanks agreed to star in it
2. The Shawshank Redemption became a massive hit on cable TV

The Green Mile becoming a hit meant those involved got more latitude. The Mist gets made. The Walking Dead gets made.

but that kind of influence can be seen at any level of success. ginger snaps influences casting of fvsj, leads to ginger snaps sequel. influences orphan black. influences american mary. that does not make ginger snaps an influential film, does it? it is, from a technical standpoint, but no one is going to ever give it that label, the way that you give to certain films that will go un-named.

[Foo]

Yup. But Tier 2 is still a mega hit. Arguing first or second tier is not a big deal. Kinda like Halloween or many other movies that could be argued one way or another.

let me ask, can the success of movies, grow or diminish over time? you mentioned "mainstream". as in, i assume mainstream consciousness? can a movie drop away from that, even though it's initial success has it there, as a historical fact?

Perception certainly changes, but success not so much. Ask a person under 40 to name the top movies of all time. Wanna bet they do not name Doctor Zhivago? Ask a person under 30 to name retailers that were highly influential. Think they name Sears?

Also, with media we have lost so many movies. Many of the drive-in and regional films are gone as they never made it to tape. Then some of the VHS does not make it to DVD, and so on. In reality, probably a small percentage of movies made outside of the big studios survived.

It changes more within the public than within the industry. Just like a young wrestling fan is more likely to name a mid-card WWF wrestler from their childhood and ignore a massive star from a different era. Vince McMahon or Jim Ross would be more apt to recognize the original Shiek or Bullet Bob Armstrong than a current fan.

well, definitely "top movie of all time changers" over time. pinocchio was in the top 40, until home alone came along. that's not even just perception. but does that mean that pinocchio is less successful?

industry guys, even newer ones, are likely going to be aware of the movies (or wrestlers) than a fan of that industry is. that's always gonna be the case.

As just a film? Possibly, but they are both multi-media properties. Both have sold a lot of merchandise beyond the movies. Pinnochio has proved to be a more sustainable merchandise seller.

[Reign in Blood]

Consider this. If The Dark Tower is made a year sooner and bombs, maybe It does not get the same budget or marketing, and maybe not made at all.

Yet applying the same negative stigma within the same year, it breaks records. I get what you're trying to get at, but they've been trying to make IT for years so I don't think the Dark Tower necessarily plays into the equation so much.

[zombie]

Consider this. If The Dark Tower is made a year sooner and bombs, maybe It does not get the same budget or marketing, and maybe not made at all.

that's possible. also "bumb" tends to be about perception, just as much as it is about financial success. amazing spiderman 2 is often cited as a bomb, when it was very successful, as an example. the dark tower is decently successful, while even still in theaters, and you just called it a bomb.

[Foo]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

i don't think it's superficial, but that shows the influence of a movie pretty directly. it is not the only influence, but without that, it's all about business. this actor or director signed this deal because of this movie kind of thing. that doesn't really make an influence culturally, in my opinion. it's behind the scenes influence. it's not mainstream influence.

Where do you think behind the scenes influence eventually appears?

Let's look at The Green Mile. That movie was solely made for two reasons:

1. Tom Hanks agreed to star in it
2. The Shawshank Redemption became a massive hit on cable TV

The Green Mile becoming a hit meant those involved got more latitude. The Mist gets made. The Walking Dead gets made.

but that kind of influence can be seen at any level of success. ginger snaps influences casting of fvsj, leads to ginger snaps sequel. influences orphan black. influences american mary. that does not make ginger snaps an influential film, does it? it is, from a technical standpoint, but no one is going to ever give it that label, the way that you give to certain films that will go un-named.

That is why you have Tiers. Tiers are levels of influence.

Sure, Ginger Snaps has a small level of influence. Anything that inspires or influences something else is influential by definition.

[Foo]

Consider this. If The Dark Tower is made a year sooner and bombs, maybe It does not get the same budget or marketing, and maybe not made at all.

that's possible. also "bumb" tends to be about perception, just as much as it is about financial success. amazing spiderman 2 is often cited as a bomb, when it was very successful, as an example. the dark tower is decently successful, while even still in theaters, and you just called it a bomb.

Please reread.

[zombie]

And yeah, you are still looking at superficial stuff and obvious themes.

i don't think it's superficial, but that shows the influence of a movie pretty directly. it is not the only influence, but without that, it's all about business. this actor or director signed this deal because of this movie kind of thing. that doesn't really make an influence culturally, in my opinion. it's behind the scenes influence. it's not mainstream influence.

Where do you think behind the scenes influence eventually appears?

Let's look at The Green Mile. That movie was solely made for two reasons:

1. Tom Hanks agreed to star in it
2. The Shawshank Redemption became a massive hit on cable TV

The Green Mile becoming a hit meant those involved got more latitude. The Mist gets made. The Walking Dead gets made.

but that kind of influence can be seen at any level of success. ginger snaps influences casting of fvsj, leads to ginger snaps sequel. influences orphan black. influences american mary. that does not make ginger snaps an influential film, does it? it is, from a technical standpoint, but no one is going to ever give it that label, the way that you give to certain films that will go un-named.

That is why you have Tiers. Tiers are levels of influence.

Sure, Ginger Snaps has a small level of influence. Anything that inspires or influences something else is influential by definition.

do you think that levels of influences, as a movie goes, can have factors beyond financial success? do you think that a film with influence beyond financial could potentially make it more it influential than one that is only influential on the financial side?

[zombie]

Consider this. If The Dark Tower is made a year sooner and bombs, maybe It does not get the same budget or marketing, and maybe not made at all.

that's possible. also "bumb" tends to be about perception, just as much as it is about financial success. amazing spiderman 2 is often cited as a bomb, when it was very successful, as an example. the dark tower is decently successful, while even still in theaters, and you just called it a bomb.

Please reread.

you don't consider dark tower to be a bomb? fair enough.