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Jason wrote:Hardheaded is hardheaded.

Pot, kettle.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Where's the outrage for Lenin statues torn down in Eastern Europe lol

i'm not outraged over it. i'm just sharing how i feel on this. if something is universally seen as representing oppression or genocide or whatever, or is universally held as a symbol to inspire that in people, then take it down, i guess. but i don't see that as being the case with the robert e lee monument. *shrug*

Any time you can cater to the minority opinion that doesn't understand its own history and whose ancestors likely lived in squalor, ya gotta do it.

Not me though. I like to snap people out of their delusions. The CSA sucked dick. Unless someone's great-great-great granddaddy owned a bunch of black people, they probably agreed.

history and historical figures / symbols mean different things to different people, even educated people.

I'm not as sympathetic to catering to people's delusions or incorrect interpretations as you, apparently. Wrong is wrong.

not a delusion, necessarily. just opinion based on your experiences and your beliefs / thoughts. what trump represents to you does not mean that if he represents something to someone else makes them wrong, what jesus christ represents to people historically does not mean you're wrong if he represents something different to you. if i was arguing that the world was flat, then i would be wrong. with this, we just have different viewpoints.

Headhunter wrote:People are so stuck on this "both sides" olive branch mentality to not rock the boat that they're numb to reacting to situations when one side is actually clearly wrong. It's not helpful in this country right now IMO.

not what i'm doing. but thanks for the msrepresenting.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:People are so stuck on this "both sides" olive branch mentality to not rock the boat that they're numb to reacting to situations when one side is actually clearly wrong. It's not helpful in this country right now IMO.

not what i'm doing. but thanks for the msrepresenting.

I'm talking about the "all sides" nonsense. But if the shoe fits, wear it I guess.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Where's the outrage for Lenin statues torn down in Eastern Europe lol

i'm not outraged over it. i'm just sharing how i feel on this. if something is universally seen as representing oppression or genocide or whatever, or is universally held as a symbol to inspire that in people, then take it down, i guess. but i don't see that as being the case with the robert e lee monument. *shrug*

Any time you can cater to the minority opinion that doesn't understand its own history and whose ancestors likely lived in squalor, ya gotta do it.

Not me though. I like to snap people out of their delusions. The CSA sucked dick. Unless someone's great-great-great granddaddy owned a bunch of black people, they probably agreed.

history and historical figures / symbols mean different things to different people, even educated people.

I'm not as sympathetic to catering to people's delusions or incorrect interpretations as you, apparently. Wrong is wrong.

not a delusion, necessarily. just opinion based on your experiences and your beliefs / thoughts. what trump represents to you does not mean that if he represents something to someone else makes them wrong, what jesus christ represents to people historically does not mean you're wrong if he represents something different to you. if i was arguing that the world was flat, then i would be wrong. with this, we just have different viewpoints.

No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:People are so stuck on this "both sides" olive branch mentality to not rock the boat that they're numb to reacting to situations when one side is actually clearly wrong. It's not helpful in this country right now IMO.

not what i'm doing. but thanks for the msrepresenting.

I'm talking about the "all sides" nonsense. But if the shoe fits, wear it I guess.

i thought you were aiming that at me, as we are the ones in this thread now. extremists and racists and oppressors of any stripe need to be called out and held accountable.

If I believe something that's complete bullshit, I would not expect a public forum for my views to be expressed and treated with respect and due process. I'd expect someone to smack me across the face and tell me to wake up from my retarded slumber.

There's nothing wrong with assertively expressing the truth. Why worry about offending the misguided few? Of more concern is not that they are sensitive but that they are misguided.

Headhunter wrote: No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

history is about events and people, not what those people and events come to mean over time, or across cultures.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: What do you mean you don't know? You do know. Nothing but racism and hatred. Clearly that's what the statue has come to symbolize to draw KKK, white separatists and Nazis out of the woodwork en masse. Why can nobody but Seb just call a spade a spade.

if a murderer gives his reason for doing it as watching child's play or oldboy or whatever else, do you condemn the movie or his actions? i'm not saying that they did not take inspiration from the statue and what it represents to them, but that's on them. punish them. call them out. show them to be fuckasses. the statue is independent of that, and it doesn't represent that to everyone.

Nobody is claiming the statue created racists. It encourages them.

i didn't say anything about creating them either.

Then you had no point.

are we fighting each other, or having a debate?

Where's the fight? I'm asking you to reconsider your argument, not challenging you to a duel. Jesus

no, you're essentially telling me that i don't have a point at all. if i said that to you, how would you take it?

Depends on if I agree or not

:arrow:

How to engage with Nazis:

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... -beaten-up

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

history is about events and people, not what those people and events come to mean over time, or across cultures.

That's a narrow and entirely incorrect view.

Reign in Blood wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: What do you mean you don't know? You do know. Nothing but racism and hatred. Clearly that's what the statue has come to symbolize to draw KKK, white separatists and Nazis out of the woodwork en masse. Why can nobody but Seb just call a spade a spade.

if a murderer gives his reason for doing it as watching child's play or oldboy or whatever else, do you condemn the movie or his actions? i'm not saying that they did not take inspiration from the statue and what it represents to them, but that's on them. punish them. call them out. show them to be fuckasses. the statue is independent of that, and it doesn't represent that to everyone.

Nobody is claiming the statue created racists. It encourages them.

i didn't say anything about creating them either.

Then you had no point.

are we fighting each other, or having a debate?

Where's the fight? I'm asking you to reconsider your argument, not challenging you to a duel. Jesus

no, you're essentially telling me that i don't have a point at all. if i said that to you, how would you take it?

Depends on if I agree or not

:arrow:

You could have done a better job making your point noticeable.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

history is about events and people, not what those people and events come to mean over time, or across cultures.

That's a narrow and entirely incorrect view.

how so? what walt disney or bruce lee or thomas edison represents to you, will not reflect, necessarily, what they represented in their era, or what they represent to another culture, or even to the person next to you potentially.

Headhunter wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: What do you mean you don't know? You do know. Nothing but racism and hatred. Clearly that's what the statue has come to symbolize to draw KKK, white separatists and Nazis out of the woodwork en masse. Why can nobody but Seb just call a spade a spade.

if a murderer gives his reason for doing it as watching child's play or oldboy or whatever else, do you condemn the movie or his actions? i'm not saying that they did not take inspiration from the statue and what it represents to them, but that's on them. punish them. call them out. show them to be fuckasses. the statue is independent of that, and it doesn't represent that to everyone.

Nobody is claiming the statue created racists. It encourages them.

i didn't say anything about creating them either.

Then you had no point.

are we fighting each other, or having a debate?

Where's the fight? I'm asking you to reconsider your argument, not challenging you to a duel. Jesus

no, you're essentially telling me that i don't have a point at all. if i said that to you, how would you take it?

Depends on if I agree or not

:arrow:

You could have done a better job making your point noticeable.

Like you'd fucking care or listen to anybody else anyways.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

history is about events and people, not what those people and events come to mean over time, or across cultures.

That's a narrow and entirely incorrect view.

how so? what walt disney or bruce lee or thomas edison represents to you, will not reflect, necessarily, what they represented in their era, or what they represent to another culture, or even to the person next to you potentially.

How so? Because that's literally not what the study of history is. It's not just "events and people", contemporary cultural impact and long term consequences are part of the deal too.

Reign in Blood wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: What do you mean you don't know? You do know. Nothing but racism and hatred. Clearly that's what the statue has come to symbolize to draw KKK, white separatists and Nazis out of the woodwork en masse. Why can nobody but Seb just call a spade a spade.

if a murderer gives his reason for doing it as watching child's play or oldboy or whatever else, do you condemn the movie or his actions? i'm not saying that they did not take inspiration from the statue and what it represents to them, but that's on them. punish them. call them out. show them to be fuckasses. the statue is independent of that, and it doesn't represent that to everyone.

Nobody is claiming the statue created racists. It encourages them.

i didn't say anything about creating them either.

Then you had no point.

are we fighting each other, or having a debate?

Where's the fight? I'm asking you to reconsider your argument, not challenging you to a duel. Jesus

no, you're essentially telling me that i don't have a point at all. if i said that to you, how would you take it?

Depends on if I agree or not

:arrow:

You could have done a better job making your point noticeable.

Like you'd fucking care or listen to anybody else anyways.

Certainly not from the peanut gallery.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: No, this is actually roughly a flat Earth situation. Making it subject to viewpoints only encourages southerners to make excuses and engage in revisionist history. They're just wrong and they need to know that.

history is about events and people, not what those people and events come to mean over time, or across cultures.

That's a narrow and entirely incorrect view.

how so? what walt disney or bruce lee or thomas edison represents to you, will not reflect, necessarily, what they represented in their era, or what they represent to another culture, or even to the person next to you potentially.

How so? Because that's literally not what the study of history is. It's not just "events and people", contemporary cultural impact and long term consequences are part of the deal too.

enh. i'm wrong. we can leave it there.

zombie wrote:
enh. i'm wrong. we can leave it there.

i take that back.

you don't see the difference between historical figures and events, and what they represent at any given time or to any given culture? even among scholars, there are different view points regarding a given battle or general or president or whatever. don't pretend otherwise. don't pretend like your viewpoint is the only true viewpoint.

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:
enh. i'm wrong. we can leave it there.

i take that back.

you don't see the difference between historical figures and events, and what they represent at any given time or to any given culture? even among scholars, there are different view points regarding a given battle or general or president or whatever. don't pretend otherwise. don't pretend like your viewpoint is the only true viewpoint.

Damn me for not wanting to cater to the sensibilities of people who don't understand their history just to be nice. This has nothing to do with multiple viewpoints or perspectives. This is some people understanding what the CSA stood for, and others pretending to be aloof to it. Their views don't deserve respect.

This is just such a horrible example for the case you're trying to make. You could have made it in hundreds of other discussions, but not this one.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:
enh. i'm wrong. we can leave it there.

i take that back.

you don't see the difference between historical figures and events, and what they represent at any given time or to any given culture? even among scholars, there are different view points regarding a given battle or general or president or whatever. don't pretend otherwise. don't pretend like your viewpoint is the only true viewpoint.

Damn me for not wanting to cater to the sensibilities of people who don't understand their history just to be nice. This has nothing to do with multiple viewpoints or perspectives. This is some people understanding what the CSA stood for, and others pretending to be aloof to it. Their views don't deserve respect.

This is just such a horrible example for the case you're trying to make. You could have made it in hundreds of other discussions, but not this one.

i'm not being aloof. i don't support what happened in charlottesville. i'm not trying to sweep it aside or ignore it. people trying to push for oppression should be oppressed themselves.

what robert e lee represents to them is not what he represents to everyone. that's all.