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I'm waiting to hear about all these people who showed up in Charlottesville merely defending the honor of a southern hero, no other motives. Since it's such a large class of people who deserve our respect and attention, you'd think they'd be more noticeable.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:
enh. i'm wrong. we can leave it there.

i take that back.

you don't see the difference between historical figures and events, and what they represent at any given time or to any given culture? even among scholars, there are different view points regarding a given battle or general or president or whatever. don't pretend otherwise. don't pretend like your viewpoint is the only true viewpoint.

Damn me for not wanting to cater to the sensibilities of people who don't understand their history just to be nice. This has nothing to do with multiple viewpoints or perspectives. This is some people understanding what the CSA stood for, and others pretending to be aloof to it. Their views don't deserve respect.

This is just such a horrible example for the case you're trying to make. You could have made it in hundreds of other discussions, but not this one.

i'm not being aloof. i don't support what happened in charlottesville. i'm not trying to sweep it aside or ignore it. people trying to push for oppression should be oppressed themselves.

what robert e lee represents to them is not what he represents to everyone. that's all.

Again, why do I need to respect romanticized fairy tales of what the Confederacy was and not the cold hard reality that left the entire region in economic and political shambles for a century? Not a single person should respect the CSA, it was an apocalyptic shithole.

Headhunter wrote:I'm waiting to hear about all these people who showed up in Charlottesville merely defending the honor of a southern hero, no other motives. Since it's such a large class of people who deserve our respect and attention, you'd think they'd be more noticeable.

extremists are the loudest and most visible. we both know this.

It has zilch to do with Robert E. Lee by the way. Personally? I'd have no problem with a Lee statue depicting his exploits in wars for the U.S. army.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:I'm waiting to hear about all these people who showed up in Charlottesville merely defending the honor of a southern hero, no other motives. Since it's such a large class of people who deserve our respect and attention, you'd think they'd be more noticeable.

extremists are the loudest and most visible. we both know this.

So why did this "quiet majority" you've implied take part at all or not speak out? When you let a bunch of Nazis or Klansmen join your ranks in a rally and don't ask them to leave, you become one of them for that period of time.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:I'm waiting to hear about all these people who showed up in Charlottesville merely defending the honor of a southern hero, no other motives. Since it's such a large class of people who deserve our respect and attention, you'd think they'd be more noticeable.

extremists are the loudest and most visible. we both know this.

So why did this "quiet majority" you've implied take part at all or not speak out? When you let a bunch of Nazis or Klansmen join your ranks in a rally and don't ask them to leave, you become one of them for that period of time.

i don't know why. good people need to stand up. (i feel a boondock saints quote coming on! ) but the fuckers should be the issue. they should be the focus of the blame and spite. that's where it should stay.

You'd think these southern honor defenders would be pretty concerned that their ideas and views have been hijacked by the racist far-right, can't think of anything that could make them look worse.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:I'm waiting to hear about all these people who showed up in Charlottesville merely defending the honor of a southern hero, no other motives. Since it's such a large class of people who deserve our respect and attention, you'd think they'd be more noticeable.

extremists are the loudest and most visible. we both know this.

So why did this "quiet majority" you've implied take part at all or not speak out? When you let a bunch of Nazis or Klansmen join your ranks in a rally and don't ask them to leave, you become one of them for that period of time.

i don't know why. good people need to stand up. (i feel a boondock saints quote coming on! ) but the fuckers should be the issue. they should be the focus of the blame and spite. that's where it should stay.

Every person who participated, no matter their motives, and didn't stand up to oppose these lunatics is complicit in what took place yesterday. Maybe these "southern honor defenders" should have a little perspective...assuming people fitting that description were even there at all.

Not once has anybody but Foo argued in this thread that the statue is the issue. People want to ignore context, that's different.

fair point. extremism is strangely tolerated a lot of the time, and it shouldn't be.

zombie wrote:fair point. extremism is strangely tolerated a lot of the time, and it shouldn't be.

MLK often said neutrality was the biggest threat to civil rights. If there really are these good and decent "southern honor defender" types, they need to stand the fuck up and confront the people who make their causes look terrible.

Headhunter wrote:
Every person who participated, no matter their motives, and didn't stand up to oppose these lunatics is complicit in what took place yesterday. Maybe these "southern honor defenders" should have a little perspective...assuming people fitting that description were even there at all.

Not once has anybody but Foo argued in this thread that the statue is the issue. People want to ignore context, that's different.

agreed, if they were there along with the assholes and didn't call them out or make an effort to distance themselves from it at least, then they are guilty too.

context always matters. never did i say otherwise.

What in the fuck are you on about, Headward? No reasonable person is defending the actions of those racists fucks. It's that the statue of Lee doesn't represent hatred and oppression to all. And again, are we gonna tear down any monument etc. that could be perceived as a negative or "wound"?

Reign in Blood wrote:What in the fuck are you on about, Headward? No reasonable person is defending the actions of those racists fucks. It's that the statue of Lee doesn't represent hatred and oppression to all. And again, are we gonna tear down any monument etc. that could be perceived as a negative or "wound"?

Why should monuments celebrating a country responsible for the deaths of so many Americans and the continued enslavement of an entire race be on U.S. soil? Would it be appropriate for Nazi statues to exist in Paris?

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:fair point. extremism is strangely tolerated a lot of the time, and it shouldn't be.

MLK often said neutrality was the biggest threat to civil rights. If there really are these good and decent "southern honor defender" types, they need to stand the fuck up and confront the people who make their causes look terrible.

Reign in Blood wrote:What in the fuck are you on about, Headward? No reasonable person is defending the actions of those racists fucks. It's that the statue of Lee doesn't represent hatred and oppression to all. And again, are we gonna tear down any monument etc. that could be perceived as a negative or "wound"?

Would those people with "alternative" interpretations of the statues be interested in standing the fuck up to the white supremacists who hijacked their ideas then? No? Then who gives a fuck what they think.

I edited your post, Zomb. I could see you were trying to embed.

Jason wrote:I edited your post, Zomb. I could see you were trying to embed.

thanks. i clicked the buttons. i don't know where i went wrong...

Headhunter wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:What in the fuck are you on about, Headward? No reasonable person is defending the actions of those racists fucks. It's that the statue of Lee doesn't represent hatred and oppression to all. And again, are we gonna tear down any monument etc. that could be perceived as a negative or "wound"?

Would those people with "alternative" interpretations of the statues be interested in standing the fuck up to the white supremacists who hijacked their ideas then? No? Then who gives a fuck what they think.

I like it. So if I go take a dump on Lincoln and no one does anything, who gives a fuck. Simplicity works.

I can convince myself a duck is a goose if I really set my mind to it. But it isn't no matter how much I believe it, and I wouldn't expect anyone to flatter my delusions. Similarly, people can lie to themselves about what the Confederacy represented but believing something to be true doesn't make it true. They are victims of revisionist ideas and Southern apologism passed down over generations by people ashamed of a decades-long era of war followed by racial terrorism.

Reign in Blood wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:What in the fuck are you on about, Headward? No reasonable person is defending the actions of those racists fucks. It's that the statue of Lee doesn't represent hatred and oppression to all. And again, are we gonna tear down any monument etc. that could be perceived as a negative or "wound"?

Would those people with "alternative" interpretations of the statues be interested in standing the fuck up to the white supremacists who hijacked their ideas then? No? Then who gives a fuck what they think.

I like it. So if I go take a dump on Lincoln and no one does anything, who gives a fuck. Simplicity works.

That post made no sense so I'm moving on.

I assume it's not too much to ask for these southern honor defenders to have the balls to reclaim the issue they're passionate about from agents of hatred and racism. Would you agree?