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Jason wrote:
It is not an easy choice, is it? You've chosen to have an increased number of deaths over the long term as opposed to rapid death that allows the virus to wipe itself out as it runs out of host reservoir.

The entire world has been put into one of the toughest decisions ever made, but it's important that all blame goes to China and the WHO. If they had been honest, at least 95% of this entire pandemic would've been prevented.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:Bare in mind, I am 50/50 on how to approach this. There is no right or wrong answer and still nobody addressed the two scenarios China gave us:
.

i am not a nobody.

we can blame china, and rightfully so. but it is like with illegal immigrants, or muslim terrorists. everyone that resembles them starts to get the stink eye. so be careful about it. and understand that it doesn't serve to actually solve anything, especially on your end as just a citizen with a gripe.

Well which option do you think is best?

i don't know the science on either. it feels like informed speculation, more than this is what will happen, in this scenario. but between just 1) let the virus burn itself out. and 2) quarantine and flatten the curve, without all the doom and gloom that you applied to them.. i would choose option 2, while also knowing that the economy can't survive that, forever, and has to get going again at some point, whether there is still covid or not. but we don't have to be there, yet.

It’s bring framed as a choice between the economy and human lives, without any consideration for the way human lives affect the economy.

yeah, that's the doom and gloom part, that i chose to leave out of it.

In my view, economies are flexible even when suspended. It isn’t a sentient being, we can manipulate it. You can’t do anything about a massive decrease in demand resulting from mass deaths. There is no fix for that. And also, morally, you should save as many lives as possible.

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote: I've been doing that in this discussion for 10+ pages. I was initially worried in January about how Trump was going to handle this, as he is the money/jobs president. But he far exceeded my expectations. And no matter who was president, I am now shifting blame to anyone. Every death is China's fault. Italy implemented "Hug a Chinese" Day to virtue signal. This is still China's fault, because they lied about the deadliness of this disease. Do you not remember the left calling Trump racist for implementing a travel ban in January? That's why Italy responded with Hug A Chinese Day, to show that they weren't racist and welcomed Chinese people with hugs all day on February 1st. They got hit the hardest and it's not Italy's fault for virtue signaling, it's because China lied.

Any single preventative measure that nations take outside of China should be looked at as lives saved for China's ineptitude. How we discuss what preventative measures should've been taken is totally fine, and as I said I am 50/50 on these measures, but to lay the dead of this virus at the feet of anyone but China and the WHO is flat out wrong and I will never bend there. Ever.

who is not doing that, then? not posting from a position of what they actually see to be happening, and their point of view on it?

well, is it productive to shout that china is at fault, as just a person with a gripe? what is the discussion there? what can we learn there, to not do in the future? and what effect does it have on people in our own country that are chinese, or even asian.. because a lot of people will just lump everyone in, that has a similar look.

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:We can absolutely blame Trump for doing nothing productive for six weeks. We can also acknowledge China’s role in this while noting that focusing on them is pointless now that it’s everywhere and every government has to be accountable for their response. It’s throwing down the hose to beat up the arson. It’s Churchill bitching about Chamberlain while bombs drop on London. I’m worried about how the Trump adminstration’s incompetence made everything worse, because that was preventable.

We won't find middle ground here. China did not have a role in this. They are 100% responsible.

Do you prefer option 1 or 2?

If you were Trump, was the best way to spend those six weeks golfing, doing rallies, bitching about Democrats and downplaying the threat?

Answered many, many pages ago last night. Seb did too.

Continuously implementing new members and experts of infectious diseases to the task force throughout February and March was just fine. The fact he took action when advised not to is what is remarkable, here. I would literally be an Obama fan if he was president right now and doing what Trump is doing.

So,

Stop right there. Just read what I said and don't put words in my mouth.

I’m telling you what he spent the six weeks doing. Which of those things did he not do?

He implemented more and more experts to learn about the disease and what the best course of action would be. You act like you're mad at him for not being in the lab, creating a vaccine. He is not an infectious disease expert. This is why he implemented a team of dozens of people who are the best at the world at learning about this. That's what he did, and he continued implementing people through February and March, and will probably continue adding more and more people. I don't know what you want from me.

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:
It is not an easy choice, is it? You've chosen to have an increased number of deaths over the long term as opposed to rapid death that allows the virus to wipe itself out as it runs out of host reservoir.

The entire world has been put into one of the toughest decisions ever made, but it's important that all blame goes to China and the WHO. If they had been honest, at least 95% of this entire pandemic would've been prevented.

no, it's not an easy choice. and the outcome you ascribe to it is not certain. so let's keep that in mind. don't lose sight that it is just speculation, and place it into fact.

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:We can absolutely blame Trump for doing nothing productive for six weeks. We can also acknowledge China’s role in this while noting that focusing on them is pointless now that it’s everywhere and every government has to be accountable for their response. It’s throwing down the hose to beat up the arson. It’s Churchill bitching about Chamberlain while bombs drop on London. I’m worried about how the Trump adminstration’s incompetence made everything worse, because that was preventable.

We won't find middle ground here. China did not have a role in this. They are 100% responsible.

Do you prefer option 1 or 2?

If you were Trump, was the best way to spend those six weeks golfing, doing rallies, bitching about Democrats and downplaying the threat?

Answered many, many pages ago last night. Seb did too.

Continuously implementing new members and experts of infectious diseases to the task force throughout February and March was just fine. The fact he took action when advised not to is what is remarkable, here. I would literally be an Obama fan if he was president right now and doing what Trump is doing.

So,

Stop right there. Just read what I said and don't put words in my mouth.

I’m telling you what he spent the six weeks doing. Which of those things did he not do?

He implemented more and more experts to learn about the disease and what the best course of action would be. You act like you're mad at him for not being in the lab, creating a vaccine. He is not an infectious disease expert. This is why he implemented a team of dozens of people who are the best at the world at learning about this. That's what he did, and he continued implementing people through February and March, and will probably continue adding more and more people. I don't know what you want from me.

A lot of hot air here, just repeating the same thing over and over. His administration assembled a team (that needed to be assembled in real time thanks to his own decisions to cut programs) that resulted in no policy for nearly two months. And was undermined by Jared Kushner and his dipshit McKinsey buddies along the way. And he golfed. And held rallies. And bitched about Democrats. And said 15 cases, soon to be 0. Like Reign said, all you have is a group of people gathering info and no actual measures taken. The rest was just Trump doing everything he always does. And enough with the vaccine straw man, nobody but you has said that and you’ve said it at least five times now.

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:We can absolutely blame Trump for doing nothing productive for six weeks. We can also acknowledge China’s role in this while noting that focusing on them is pointless now that it’s everywhere and every government has to be accountable for their response. It’s throwing down the hose to beat up the arson. It’s Churchill bitching about Chamberlain while bombs drop on London. I’m worried about how the Trump adminstration’s incompetence made everything worse, because that was preventable.

We won't find middle ground here. China did not have a role in this. They are 100% responsible.

Do you prefer option 1 or 2?

If you were Trump, was the best way to spend those six weeks golfing, doing rallies, bitching about Democrats and downplaying the threat?

Answered many, many pages ago last night. Seb did too.

Continuously implementing new members and experts of infectious diseases to the task force throughout February and March was just fine. The fact he took action when advised not to is what is remarkable, here. I would literally be an Obama fan if he was president right now and doing what Trump is doing.

So,

Stop right there. Just read what I said and don't put words in my mouth.

I’m telling you what he spent the six weeks doing. Which of those things did he not do?

He implemented more and more experts to learn about the disease and what the best course of action would be. You act like you're mad at him for not being in the lab, creating a vaccine. He is not an infectious disease expert. This is why he implemented a team of dozens of people who are the best at the world at learning about this. That's what he did, and he continued implementing people through February and March, and will probably continue adding more and more people. I don't know what you want from me.

A lot of hot air here, just repeating the same thing over and over. His administration assembled a team (that needed to be assembled in real time thanks to his own decisions to cut programs) that resulted in no policy for nearly two months. And was undermined by Jared Kushner and his dipshit McKinsey buddies along the way. And he golfed. And held rallies. And bitched about Democrats. And said 15 cases, soon to be 0. Like Reign said, all you have is a group of people gathering info and no actual measures taken. The rest was just Trump doing everything he always does. And enough with the vaccine straw man, nobody but you has said that and you’ve said it at least five times now.

We're just not going to see it in the same light, so there is no point in arguing here.

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote: I've been doing that in this discussion for 10+ pages. I was initially worried in January about how Trump was going to handle this, as he is the money/jobs president. But he far exceeded my expectations. And no matter who was president, I am now shifting blame to anyone. Every death is China's fault. Italy implemented "Hug a Chinese" Day to virtue signal. This is still China's fault, because they lied about the deadliness of this disease. Do you not remember the left calling Trump racist for implementing a travel ban in January? That's why Italy responded with Hug A Chinese Day, to show that they weren't racist and welcomed Chinese people with hugs all day on February 1st. They got hit the hardest and it's not Italy's fault for virtue signaling, it's because China lied.

Any single preventative measure that nations take outside of China should be looked at as lives saved for China's ineptitude. How we discuss what preventative measures should've been taken is totally fine, and as I said I am 50/50 on these measures, but to lay the dead of this virus at the feet of anyone but China and the WHO is flat out wrong and I will never bend there. Ever.

who is not doing that, then? not posting from a position of what they actually see to be happening, and their point of view on it?

well, is it productive to shout that china is at fault, as just a person with a gripe? what is the discussion there? what can we learn there, to not do in the future? and what effect does it have on people in our own country that are chinese, or even asian.. because a lot of people will just lump everyone in, that has a similar look.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Nobody is saying it's the fault of Chinese people in America. Anyone that says that is retarded. It is the fault of the Chinese Communist Party. It is their fault for having filth-ridden wet markets where the vast majority of infectious diseases are formed and not shutting the shit down. Did you know that they reopened the wet markets again recently?

Jmac Attack wrote:Am I the only person in here who owned 90s Hustler magazines? Lol

Headhunter wrote:Let’s just not pretend assembling a team that should have already existed is a preventative measure because it isn’t. It’s not anything until it leads to policy. Six weeks, zero policy.

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Let’s just not pretend assembling a team that should have already existed is a preventative measure because it isn’t. It’s not anything until it leads to policy. Six weeks, zero policy.

There's an argument to be made that nothing should have done, and allowing the virus to burn itself out would save more lives in the long run and the disease would be dead in months.

There is no right or wrong answer. The only thing that is certain, is that China lied and caused this disease to spread worldwide. Any grievance any of us have about the coronavirus is all because of China and the WHO. I will not bend here.

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote: I've been doing that in this discussion for 10+ pages. I was initially worried in January about how Trump was going to handle this, as he is the money/jobs president. But he far exceeded my expectations. And no matter who was president, I am now shifting blame to anyone. Every death is China's fault. Italy implemented "Hug a Chinese" Day to virtue signal. This is still China's fault, because they lied about the deadliness of this disease. Do you not remember the left calling Trump racist for implementing a travel ban in January? That's why Italy responded with Hug A Chinese Day, to show that they weren't racist and welcomed Chinese people with hugs all day on February 1st. They got hit the hardest and it's not Italy's fault for virtue signaling, it's because China lied.

Any single preventative measure that nations take outside of China should be looked at as lives saved for China's ineptitude. How we discuss what preventative measures should've been taken is totally fine, and as I said I am 50/50 on these measures, but to lay the dead of this virus at the feet of anyone but China and the WHO is flat out wrong and I will never bend there. Ever.

who is not doing that, then? not posting from a position of what they actually see to be happening, and their point of view on it?

well, is it productive to shout that china is at fault, as just a person with a gripe? what is the discussion there? what can we learn there, to not do in the future? and what effect does it have on people in our own country that are chinese, or even asian.. because a lot of people will just lump everyone in, that has a similar look.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Nobody is saying it's the fault of Chinese people in America. Anyone that says that is retarded. It is the fault of the Chinese Communist Party. It is their fault for having filth-ridden wet markets where the vast majority of infectious diseases are formed and not shutting the shit down. Did you know that they reopened the wet markets again recently?

well you said, everyone does it, on hmf, but me. but then you said you weren't doing it... so who is?

so you blame china. people scare easily and are quick to judgment. they know your position and apply it to chinese, or asian, people they see around them.

take pearl harbor, the japanese bombed us. so we put japanese americans into camps. take the red scare.. during the cold war, anyone who could be linked to the soviets was blacklisted. it happens.

and what is the upside to it, from your circle of influence?

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote: I've been doing that in this discussion for 10+ pages. I was initially worried in January about how Trump was going to handle this, as he is the money/jobs president. But he far exceeded my expectations. And no matter who was president, I am now shifting blame to anyone. Every death is China's fault. Italy implemented "Hug a Chinese" Day to virtue signal. This is still China's fault, because they lied about the deadliness of this disease. Do you not remember the left calling Trump racist for implementing a travel ban in January? That's why Italy responded with Hug A Chinese Day, to show that they weren't racist and welcomed Chinese people with hugs all day on February 1st. They got hit the hardest and it's not Italy's fault for virtue signaling, it's because China lied.

Any single preventative measure that nations take outside of China should be looked at as lives saved for China's ineptitude. How we discuss what preventative measures should've been taken is totally fine, and as I said I am 50/50 on these measures, but to lay the dead of this virus at the feet of anyone but China and the WHO is flat out wrong and I will never bend there. Ever.

who is not doing that, then? not posting from a position of what they actually see to be happening, and their point of view on it?

well, is it productive to shout that china is at fault, as just a person with a gripe? what is the discussion there? what can we learn there, to not do in the future? and what effect does it have on people in our own country that are chinese, or even asian.. because a lot of people will just lump everyone in, that has a similar look.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Nobody is saying it's the fault of Chinese people in America. Anyone that says that is retarded. It is the fault of the Chinese Communist Party. It is their fault for having filth-ridden wet markets where the vast majority of infectious diseases are formed and not shutting the shit down. Did you know that they reopened the wet markets again recently?

well you said, everyone does it, on hmf, but me. but then you said you weren't doing it... so who is?

so you blame china. people scare easily and are quick to judgment. they know your position and apply it to chinese, or asian, people they see around them.

take pearl harbor, the japanese bombed us. so we put japanese americans into camps. take the red scare.. during the cold war, anyone who could be linked to the soviets was blacklisted. it happens.

and what is the upside to it, from your circle of influence?

Oh, I'm just saying we've all been guilty of that on HMF at one time or another except you. Not necessarily in this particular situation.

Sure, but we are not at war with China. We were at war with Japan. It was a scary time and it's hard to speculate on a political climate we didn't live through. We only know what we're told, we never lived it. The vast majority of details disappear over time.

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Let’s just not pretend assembling a team that should have already existed is a preventative measure because it isn’t. It’s not anything until it leads to policy. Six weeks, zero policy.

There's an argument to be made that nothing should have done, and allowing the virus to burn itself out would save more lives in the long run and the disease would be dead in months.

There is no right or wrong answer. The only thing that is certain, is that China lied and caused this disease to spread worldwide. Any grievance any of us have about the coronavirus is all because of China and the WHO. I will not bend here.

There definitely is not an argument to be made that nothing should have been done, but at least you’re coming to terms in real time with what the administration did (virtually nothing).

Headhunter wrote:This is why primary sources are so valuable. Newspapers, journals, telegrams. We can pretty definitively see exactly what people were thinking within the context of when they lived.

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:This is why primary sources are so valuable. Newspapers, journals, telegrams. We can pretty definitively see exactly what people were thinking within the context of when they lived.

Right, but we'll never truly understand it the way they did. We're watching a movie where we know the spoiler, they lived in the actually movie not knowing what would happen next. Entirely different perspectives and all need to be respected.

Jason wrote: Oh, I'm just saying we've all been guilty of that on HMF at one time or another except you. Not necessarily in this particular situation.

Sure, but we are not at war with China. We were at war with Japan. It was a scary time and it's hard to speculate on a political climate we didn't live through. We only know what we're told, we never lived it. The vast majority of details disappear over time.

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:This is why primary sources are so valuable. Newspapers, journals, telegrams. We can pretty definitively see exactly what people were thinking within the context of when they lived.

Right, but we'll never truly understand it the way they did. We're watching a movie where we know the spoiler, they lived in the actually movie not knowing what would happen next. Entirely different perspectives and all need to be respected.

Not 100% but there is enough information to fill in the blanks with a high level of confidence. “We only know what we’re told” is not correct.