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zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

Tiggnutz wrote:We should of all stayed Puritans

There are underrated aspects of that.

puritanism, as it has been represented to me, seems pretty terrible.

I bet a few puritans were sneaking away to drink, fuck and gamble.

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

Tiggnutz wrote:We should of all stayed Puritans

There are underrated aspects of that.

puritanism, as it has been represented to me, seems pretty terrible.

Puritans brought wide spread literacy to the west. They also had strong views about the value of good sex between a husband and wife.

reading is good and so is sex, as i understand it. if that is what they were known for, i would be nearer to your view here.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

also, since this started out seemingly to be about productive vs. unproductive. would you be okay with that kind of drug use to "live in the moment" made them more productive than they would be otherwise, or would you still take it to be abuse?

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

Helpful for the short term or long term? What is the long term outcome for the person who uses substances as a crutch instead of learning to cope?

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

also, since this started out seemingly to be about productive vs. unproductive. would you be okay with that kind of drug use to "live in the moment" made them more productive than they would be otherwise, or would you still take it to be abuse?

Speed is certainly capable of making people more productive for short stretches. Unsustainable, just like most drug abuse.

Foo wrote:
Helpful for the short term or long term? What is the long term outcome for the person who uses substances as a crutch instead of learning to cope?

if they can find a way to cope without the use of the drug, awesome. the long term outcome could be that they give up trying or it could be the push they need to keep going, to keep trying. i can see both outcomes. what were you implying?

since you brought up crutch. would you fault someone for using a cane to help them remain productive? would you fault them if they relied on that cane to function? abuse has to be more than taking something to help yourself be functional or productive, doesn't it?

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

also, since this started out seemingly to be about productive vs. unproductive. would you be okay with that kind of drug use to "live in the moment" made them more productive than they would be otherwise, or would you still take it to be abuse?

Speed is certainly capable of making people more productive for short stretches. Unsustainable, just like most drug abuse.

you're taking any amount of regular use of any substance to be abuse. i think that it is more nuanced than that.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Helpful for the short term or long term? What is the long term outcome for the person who uses substances as a crutch instead of learning to cope?

if they can find a way to cope without the use of the drug, awesome. the long term outcome could be that they give up trying or it could be the push they need to keep going, to keep trying. i can see both outcomes. what were you implying?

since you brought up crutch. would you fault someone for using a cane to help them remain productive? would you fault them if they relied on that cane to function? abuse has to be more than taking something to help yourself be functional or productive, doesn't it?

If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

also, since this started out seemingly to be about productive vs. unproductive. would you be okay with that kind of drug use to "live in the moment" made them more productive than they would be otherwise, or would you still take it to be abuse?

Speed is certainly capable of making people more productive for short stretches. Unsustainable, just like most drug abuse.

you're taking any amount of regular use of any substance to be abuse. i think that it is more nuanced than that.

If you need to escape reality on a regular basis, that is a problem.

Foo wrote:
If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

they may try harder to cope without the drug, sure. they may not be able to. is understanding that you can't cope on your own, and then finding a substance to help you cope, not a way, in itself, of being productive?

that absolutely could be a result. would you treat someone relying on a cane to function, in the same way that you treat someone relying on a substance to function?

Basically, weed advocates and big pharma are pushing the same idea. You don't need a cane, but you should use one every day. Get used to it, because walking with it will be better.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Abuse is use in light of consequences. Abuse is use to escape reality.

"Think about the past causes depression. Thinking about the future causes anxiety. Substance X lets me live in the moment."

That is paraphrasing, but I hope you see the issue with doing that frequently.

i can see an issue with that. and i can also see a useful-ness with it, as well. i personally do not want to take anti-depressants and the like, because of how i've seen it affect other people around me, but i won't fault those that use it and do find it to be helpful for them.

also, since this started out seemingly to be about productive vs. unproductive. would you be okay with that kind of drug use to "live in the moment" made them more productive than they would be otherwise, or would you still take it to be abuse?

Speed is certainly capable of making people more productive for short stretches. Unsustainable, just like most drug abuse.

you're taking any amount of regular use of any substance to be abuse. i think that it is more nuanced than that.

If you need to escape reality on a regular basis, that is a problem.

it is a problem. it doesn't mean that you are not a good person if you have such a problem. it does not mean you are unproductive if you have such a problem.

Foo wrote:Basically, weed advocates and big pharma are pushing the same idea. You don't need a cane, but you should use one every day. Get used to it, because walking with it will be better.

and all i'm saying is that using a cane does not equate to abuse. use vs. abuse is more than partaking on a regular basis. abuse is more than taking a substance to cope.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

they may try harder to cope without the drug, sure. they may not be able to. is understanding that you can't cope on your own, and then finding a substance to help you cope, not a way, in itself, of being productive?

that absolutely could be a result. would you treat someone relying on a cane to function, in the same way that you treat someone relying on a substance to function?

To me it is giving up. It is never feeling true feelings anymore because it is coming from a substance. It is a video game cheat code that takes the reason for playing away.

I would kick the cane out of their hand if I loved them. If I don't care, I would allow them to lurch around using the cane instead of learning to walk again, but if I truly cared I would knock them to the ground and make them begin to walk without the cane.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

they may try harder to cope without the drug, sure. they may not be able to. is understanding that you can't cope on your own, and then finding a substance to help you cope, not a way, in itself, of being productive?

that absolutely could be a result. would you treat someone relying on a cane to function, in the same way that you treat someone relying on a substance to function?

To me it is giving up. It is never feeling true feelings anymore because it is coming from a substance. It is a video game cheat code that takes the reason for playing away.

I would kick the cane out of their hand if I loved them. If I don't care, I would allow them to lurch around using the cane instead of learning to walk again, but if I truly cared I would knock them to the ground and make them begin to walk without the cane.

that's not the approach i would take. if you take that to mean that i don't love the person, then so be it.

do you mind if we take this a little bit more personal? i assume that you love yourself? have you looked at the underlying issues that cause your food addiction? have you stopped yourself from eating to cope with those underlying issues?

and if this is too much, feel free to avoid.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

they may try harder to cope without the drug, sure. they may not be able to. is understanding that you can't cope on your own, and then finding a substance to help you cope, not a way, in itself, of being productive?

that absolutely could be a result. would you treat someone relying on a cane to function, in the same way that you treat someone relying on a substance to function?

To me it is giving up. It is never feeling true feelings anymore because it is coming from a substance. It is a video game cheat code that takes the reason for playing away.

I would kick the cane out of their hand if I loved them. If I don't care, I would allow them to lurch around using the cane instead of learning to walk again, but if I truly cared I would knock them to the ground and make them begin to walk without the cane.

that's not the approach i would take. if you take that to mean that i don't love the person, then so be it.

do you mind if we take this a little bit more personal? i assume that you love yourself? have you looked at the underlying issues that cause your food addiction? have you stopped yourself from eating to cope with those underlying issues?

and if this is too much, feel free to avoid.

No need to avoid. I have had weight swings of 70 pounds in months. I can lose and gain very fast. I think it is tied to not wanting attention. It could go deeper, perhaps it is because I never knew my real father or something someone told me when I was young. Maybe I was molested and do not recall. Not sure as I don't believe it is deeper.

Perhaps it is some sort of fear of relationships. Maybe that is why I am engaged to someone I am only with occasionally? Tough to say.

Here is the thing, I am capable of overcoming it, and I will work towards that versus using some crutch.

If you knew someone could walk without a crutch, but instead chose to use the crutch so often they started to have trouble walking without it, would you not do something?

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
If the drug was not available, do you think they would try harder to explore ways to cope without the drugs? Wanna wager people can hold onto a rope when you take away the safety net below them?

Sometimes using the cane prevents a person from ever walking without it. It changes you. Become part of you. Then the cane is as important as anything in your life, because you can't walk without it.

they may try harder to cope without the drug, sure. they may not be able to. is understanding that you can't cope on your own, and then finding a substance to help you cope, not a way, in itself, of being productive?

that absolutely could be a result. would you treat someone relying on a cane to function, in the same way that you treat someone relying on a substance to function?

To me it is giving up. It is never feeling true feelings anymore because it is coming from a substance. It is a video game cheat code that takes the reason for playing away.

I would kick the cane out of their hand if I loved them. If I don't care, I would allow them to lurch around using the cane instead of learning to walk again, but if I truly cared I would knock them to the ground and make them begin to walk without the cane.

that's not the approach i would take. if you take that to mean that i don't love the person, then so be it.

do you mind if we take this a little bit more personal? i assume that you love yourself? have you looked at the underlying issues that cause your food addiction? have you stopped yourself from eating to cope with those underlying issues?

and if this is too much, feel free to avoid.

No need to avoid. I have had weight swings of 70 pounds in months. I can lose and gain very fast. I think it is tied to not wanting attention. It could go deeper, perhaps it is because I never knew my real father or something someone told me when I was young. Maybe I was molested and do not recall. Not sure as I don't believe it is deeper.

Perhaps it is some sort of fear of relationships. Maybe that is why I am engaged to someone I am only with occasionally? Tough to say.

Here is the thing, I am capable of overcoming it, and I will work towards that versus using some crutch.

i thought food was your crutch, in this instance? and i hope that you do overcome it.

in this situation, i would let the person know how i felt about the use of the crutch, physical or emotional / mental crutch. while also trying to let them know that i don't look down on them for the use of the crutch. they are not any less of a person. i don't love them any less for the use of the crutch. and if they were open to help, i would help them and encourage them away from the crutch. that's just me.

Foo wrote:If you knew someone could walk without a crutch, but instead chose to use the crutch so often they started to have trouble walking without it, would you not do something?

i would. that would be abuse. if they couldn't walk without it, i would encourage them to strengthen their muscles back to the point that hopefully they could walk without it again. but i would try to show them that i did not think less of them for the use of the crutch.