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Headhunter wrote:The story worth talking about is millions of people both in this country and around the world protesting the racial injustice and terrible policing in this country. Not gonna let people hijack that narrative because a combo of undercover law enforcement, white supremacists and far left anarchists want to break shit for different reasons.

the second part is connected to the first. as it is done to damage the cause against racial injustice.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:The story worth talking about is millions of people both in this country and around the world protesting the racial injustice and terrible policing in this country. Not gonna let people hijack that narrative because a combo of undercover law enforcement, white supremacists and far left anarchists want to break shit for different reasons.

the second part is connected to the first. as it is done to damage the cause against racial injustice.

It only has that effect because people who don’t really care about racial injustice in the first place use the looting as an excuse to bury the lede. They’re wrong, we shouldn’t need to cater to them. If you’re “on the fence” in that regard, you’re part of the problem yourself.

You are right that the second part is connected to the first though. Because when the law fails, lawlessness prevails. So address the law failing.

Headhunter wrote:Finally all of the cops involved in the Floyd murder have been charged. And Chauvin’s charge has been upgraded to second degree.

it's good to see some level of punishment for the four of them.

Anyone with a functioning brain who actually cares about the core issue is more than capable of compartmentalization. When it becomes “I did support the cause until the looting”, that person was always full of shit. They never cared. It was just a case of clear injustice that was too hard for them to ignore, but once they had a potential out, they couldn’t jump to the other side fast enough. These people are some of the biggest obstacles to real change.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:The story worth talking about is millions of people both in this country and around the world protesting the racial injustice and terrible policing in this country. Not gonna let people hijack that narrative because a combo of undercover law enforcement, white supremacists and far left anarchists want to break shit for different reasons.

the second part is connected to the first. as it is done to damage the cause against racial injustice.

It only has that effect because people who don’t really care about racial injustice in the first place use the looting as an excuse to bury the lede. They’re wrong, we shouldn’t need to cater to them. If you’re “on the fence” in that regard, you’re part of the problem yourself.

You are right that the second part is connected to the first though. Because when the law fails, lawlessness prevails. So address the law failing.

what does "ion the fence" have to do with this? i feel like i'm missing something.

i am addressing the law failing. actually the cop killing is lawlessness carried out by the law, unless he was charged with something?

Like, do we really need to pretend these people aren’t being held accountable? People are being hauled off to jails in LA for simply being out past curfew. There is more than enough “justice” handed out to the actual troublemakers. They don’t get to skate by and go home like the cops who are doing horrible things all over the country right now.

Headhunter wrote:Anyone with a functioning brain who actually cares about the core issue is more than capable of compartmentalization. When it becomes “I did support the cause until the looting”, that person was always full of shit. They never cared. It was just a case of clear injustice that was too hard for them to ignore, but once they had a potential out, they couldn’t jump to the other side fast enough. These people are some of the biggest obstacles to real change.

that;s fair, i'm sorry if you've taken my position to be that of no longer caring about racial injustice now, because there is looting caught up into it.

Headhunter wrote:Like, do we really need to pretend these people aren’t being held accountable? People are being hauled off to jails in LA for simply being out past curfew. There is more than enough “justice” handed out to the actual troublemakers. They don’t get to skate by and go home like the cops who are doing horrible things all over the country right now.

if they're undercover cops and white supremacists they might. maybe even left wing antifa types too. and it makes the actual people who are fighting for the cause look bad. and get arrested too. or even just bystanders out after dark. as you pointed out. it is a problem. and is connected to the bigger more important issue.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:The story worth talking about is millions of people both in this country and around the world protesting the racial injustice and terrible policing in this country. Not gonna let people hijack that narrative because a combo of undercover law enforcement, white supremacists and far left anarchists want to break shit for different reasons.

the second part is connected to the first. as it is done to damage the cause against racial injustice.

It only has that effect because people who don’t really care about racial injustice in the first place use the looting as an excuse to bury the lede. They’re wrong, we shouldn’t need to cater to them. If you’re “on the fence” in that regard, you’re part of the problem yourself.

You are right that the second part is connected to the first though. Because when the law fails, lawlessness prevails. So address the law failing.

what does "ion the fence" have to do with this? i feel like i'm missing something.

i am addressing the law failing. actually the cop killing is lawlessness carried out by the law, unless he was charged with something?

In what way is it logical for the looting to undermine the issue of policing and racial injustice here? That doesn’t make any sense. They are unrelated; except in being a consequence of a vacuum in proper law enforcement...as a result of scumbag cops. The “on the fence” is cheeky because there is no fence here. You either agree with what’s wrong with policing in this country or you don’t. The looting has nothing to do with that, so anyone using it to undermine the original issue is completely full of it and not an ally to begin with.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Like, do we really need to pretend these people aren’t being held accountable? People are being hauled off to jails in LA for simply being out past curfew. There is more than enough “justice” handed out to the actual troublemakers. They don’t get to skate by and go home like the cops who are doing horrible things all over the country right now.

if they're undercover cops and white supremacists they might. maybe even left wing antifa types too. and it makes the actual people who are fighting for the cause look bad. and get arrested too. or even just bystanders out after dark. as you pointed out. it is a problem. and is connected to the bigger more important issue.

Why would it make them look bad? They’re not responsible for every person’s actions who shows up.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:Anyone with a functioning brain who actually cares about the core issue is more than capable of compartmentalization. When it becomes “I did support the cause until the looting”, that person was always full of shit. They never cared. It was just a case of clear injustice that was too hard for them to ignore, but once they had a potential out, they couldn’t jump to the other side fast enough. These people are some of the biggest obstacles to real change.

that;s fair, i'm sorry if you've taken my position to be that of no longer caring about racial injustice now, because there is looting caught up into it.

I’m not framing any of this as your personal stance. You made it clear that you’re talking about the way others will perceive it. And that perception is bullshit.

But it’s true that this country largely allows these messages to be undermined by unrelated criminal behavior. And it’s wrong. It almost feels like victim blaming to hold protesters to account for that. Nothing about the way you perceive the murders, the issues with law enforcement and the on-brand protesting should be affected in any way by what other people do. It always feels like a convenient excuse when people do allow it to affect their perception. Maybe that’s a problem with this country philosophically. We find the most convenient reasons to do nothing.

Headhunter wrote: In what way is it logical for the looting to undermine the issue of policing and racial injustice here? That doesn’t make any sense. They are unrelated; except in being a consequence of a vacuum in proper law enforcement...as a result of scumbag cops. The “on the fence” is cheeky because there is no fence here. You either agree with what’s wrong with policing in this country or you don’t. The looting has nothing to do with that, so anyone using it to undermine the original issue is completely full of it and not an ally to begin with.

if your goal is to use the looting as a way to give up supporting the fight against racial injustice and abuse of police power, then you are full of shit, yeah.

Headhunter wrote:But it’s true that this country largely allows these messages to be undermined by unrelated criminal behavior. And it’s wrong. It almost feels like victim blaming to hold protesters to account for that. Nothing about the way you perceive the murders, the issues with law enforcement and the on-brand protesting should be affected in any way by what other people do. It always feels like a convenient excuse when people do allow it to affect their perception. Maybe that’s a problem with this country philosophically. We find the most convenient reasons to do nothing.

can you want something to be done, and/or actually be working directly to do something, while also decrying some of the shit that goes on around that thing you're supporting? floyd's brother and the lawyer both seem to carry themselves that way.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: In what way is it logical for the looting to undermine the issue of policing and racial injustice here? That doesn’t make any sense. They are unrelated; except in being a consequence of a vacuum in proper law enforcement...as a result of scumbag cops. The “on the fence” is cheeky because there is no fence here. You either agree with what’s wrong with policing in this country or you don’t. The looting has nothing to do with that, so anyone using it to undermine the original issue is completely full of it and not an ally to begin with.

if your goal is to use the looting as a way to give up supporting the fight against racial injustice and abuse of police power, then you are full of shit, yeah.

I believe that’s what has happened. People (mostly but not exclusively conservatives) have found a way to make what should be a consensus issue a divisive one through some flat out BS logic. Whether they know it’s BS or actually think it holds up probably varies person to person.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:But it’s true that this country largely allows these messages to be undermined by unrelated criminal behavior. And it’s wrong. It almost feels like victim blaming to hold protesters to account for that. Nothing about the way you perceive the murders, the issues with law enforcement and the on-brand protesting should be affected in any way by what other people do. It always feels like a convenient excuse when people do allow it to affect their perception. Maybe that’s a problem with this country philosophically. We find the most convenient reasons to do nothing.

can you want something to be done, and/or actually be working directly to do something, while also decrying some of the shit that goes on around that thing you're supporting? floyd's brother and the lawyer both seem to carry themselves that way.

You can but do you really have to with anything close to the same energy? A lot of those people are being arrested. Some of them are being chased off or detained by protesters. There are a lot of people holding them to account. On the other hand, people have to beg and plead in the streets of every major city for police to be held accountable...while still being victimized by more horrible shit police won’t be held to account for.

For the record, I believe a lot of the outcry from Floyd family members and other protesters about the looters is because they know the majority of people will use it as an excuse to stop caring.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: In what way is it logical for the looting to undermine the issue of policing and racial injustice here? That doesn’t make any sense. They are unrelated; except in being a consequence of a vacuum in proper law enforcement...as a result of scumbag cops. The “on the fence” is cheeky because there is no fence here. You either agree with what’s wrong with policing in this country or you don’t. The looting has nothing to do with that, so anyone using it to undermine the original issue is completely full of it and not an ally to begin with.

if your goal is to use the looting as a way to give up supporting the fight against racial injustice and abuse of police power, then you are full of shit, yeah.

I believe that’s what has happened. People (mostly but not exclusively conservatives) have found a way to make what should be a consensus issue a divisive one through some flat out BS logic. Whether they know it’s BS or actually think it holds up probably varies person to person.

well, yeah. a percentage of people are always going to look for a way to make it divisive. if it's peaceful, then "fire them!" and if there is rioting involved, then they'll just frame everyone as violent and looting and antifa whatever crap.

Headhunter wrote: You can but do you really have to with anything close to the same energy? A lot of those people are being arrested. Some of them are being chased off or detained by protesters. There are a lot of people holding them to account. On the other hand, people have to beg and plead in the streets of every major city for police to be held accountable...while still being victimized by more horrible shit police won’t be held to account for.

no, you should focus mostly on the fight against injustice, and also on keeping the communities together, in spite of assholes trying to hide behind the movement to tear it down both figuratively and by making things unlivable and unsustainable for those who are genuinely fighting for that cause.

Gen. Mad Dog Mattis with some strong words regarding Trump, echoing things said in this very thread:

“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try.”

Other Republicans need to grow some balls and follow suit. Mad Dog has opened the door for them if they have even a shred of dignity left.