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zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:As I said before, had nothing to do with OJ. They didn't care about OJ any more than white football fans. When an institution fails time and time again to do right, they lose credibility and trust and people view everything they do with skepticism.

we aren't disagreeing about need for more accountability and reform for police officers. so we can just leave it there, i guess.

So it just seems weird to shame people for adopting that attitude of total skepticism. They are reacting to things we know to be problems. Of course it would be better if they liked and trusted the police, but that's on the police to earn their trust.

it seems weird to fight me on thinking that something should be done about a piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity and use it to absolve himself. but if all that blame falls to the cops, and nothing else can be done in addition, i guess i won't argue you out of your position.

You must be mistaking me for someone else because I have absolutely no clue what you're referring to here. Definitely didn't fight about...whatever that is.

well, i've tried to be pretty clear that that is my position. and you boil it down to mocking people for being uneasy or untrusting of police and authority. so i don't know how else to express the position.

What I mean is I don't understand the "piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity" thing or how it relates to any of this. Genuinely don't know where you're going with that.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:As I said before, had nothing to do with OJ. They didn't care about OJ any more than white football fans. When an institution fails time and time again to do right, they lose credibility and trust and people view everything they do with skepticism.

we aren't disagreeing about need for more accountability and reform for police officers. so we can just leave it there, i guess.

So it just seems weird to shame people for adopting that attitude of total skepticism. They are reacting to things we know to be problems. Of course it would be better if they liked and trusted the police, but that's on the police to earn their trust.

it seems weird to fight me on thinking that something should be done about a piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity and use it to absolve himself. but if all that blame falls to the cops, and nothing else can be done in addition, i guess i won't argue you out of your position.

You must be mistaking me for someone else because I have absolutely no clue what you're referring to here. Definitely didn't fight about...whatever that is.

well, i've tried to be pretty clear that that is my position. and you boil it down to mocking people for being uneasy or untrusting of police and authority. so i don't know how else to express the position.

What I mean is I don't understand the "piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity" thing or how it relates to any of this. Genuinely don't know where you're going with that.

oj simpson is a piece of shit. you pointed out that his skin color and police behavior toward others with that skin color is what caused doubt in the community?

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:As I said before, had nothing to do with OJ. They didn't care about OJ any more than white football fans. When an institution fails time and time again to do right, they lose credibility and trust and people view everything they do with skepticism.

we aren't disagreeing about need for more accountability and reform for police officers. so we can just leave it there, i guess.

So it just seems weird to shame people for adopting that attitude of total skepticism. They are reacting to things we know to be problems. Of course it would be better if they liked and trusted the police, but that's on the police to earn their trust.

it seems weird to fight me on thinking that something should be done about a piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity and use it to absolve himself. but if all that blame falls to the cops, and nothing else can be done in addition, i guess i won't argue you out of your position.

You must be mistaking me for someone else because I have absolutely no clue what you're referring to here. Definitely didn't fight about...whatever that is.

well, i've tried to be pretty clear that that is my position. and you boil it down to mocking people for being uneasy or untrusting of police and authority. so i don't know how else to express the position.

What I mean is I don't understand the "piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity" thing or how it relates to any of this. Genuinely don't know where you're going with that.

oj simpson is a piece of shit. you pointed out that his skin color and police behavior toward others with that skin color is what caused doubt in the community?

OJ was a throwaway example and I could have listed 30 other people in his place to make my point. I probably should have used another example because it's become distracting.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:As I said before, had nothing to do with OJ. They didn't care about OJ any more than white football fans. When an institution fails time and time again to do right, they lose credibility and trust and people view everything they do with skepticism.

we aren't disagreeing about need for more accountability and reform for police officers. so we can just leave it there, i guess.

So it just seems weird to shame people for adopting that attitude of total skepticism. They are reacting to things we know to be problems. Of course it would be better if they liked and trusted the police, but that's on the police to earn their trust.

it seems weird to fight me on thinking that something should be done about a piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity and use it to absolve himself. but if all that blame falls to the cops, and nothing else can be done in addition, i guess i won't argue you out of your position.

You must be mistaking me for someone else because I have absolutely no clue what you're referring to here. Definitely didn't fight about...whatever that is.

well, i've tried to be pretty clear that that is my position. and you boil it down to mocking people for being uneasy or untrusting of police and authority. so i don't know how else to express the position.

What I mean is I don't understand the "piece of shit being able to hide behind his identity" thing or how it relates to any of this. Genuinely don't know where you're going with that.

oj simpson is a piece of shit. you pointed out that his skin color and police behavior toward others with that skin color is what caused doubt in the community?

OJ was a throwaway example and I could have listed 30 other people in his place to make my point. I probably should have used another example because it's become distracting.

like i said, we don't disagree on some reform and more accountability for police being a good thing.

still i do think it's worth exploring and discussing how identity is used to excuse or defend bad people. and if there is any way to undo that, even in some little way. and this doesn't only happen with black americans. virtually every kind of identity trait has been used to that end by someone or other. so yeah.

The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

If you want things to improve you tackle each of those through training, recruitment, updating of guidance and manuals, focus on bias training and assessments, change of procedural treatment of criminals, and improved community outreach programmes and discussions. It’s notceasy but it’s a start.

In theory on Z’s “Reform the pieces of shit” point you are limited by what you can control. The two theoretically useful starting points there are Education reform and prison reform. Which again are huge issues.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

zombie wrote:still i do think it's worth exploring and discussing how identity is used to excuse or defend bad people. and if there is any way to undo that, even in some little way. and this doesn't only happen with black americans. virtually every kind of identity trait has been used to that end by someone or other. so yeah.

Start with more education about bias and subconscious biases. If I recall there’s even tests you can run.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/aboutus.html

Harvard I think has a good engine to try and identify some of the possible unconscious biases and their prevalence.

Education is always a good answer.

Reign in Blood wrote:When cops are bad, it's all on the cops. When pieces of shit are bad, it's all on the cops. Pretty straight forward.

The cops are the reason that the bad increasingly occurs and is left to spiral out of control. They didn’t do the bad directlynevery time but they set up the scenario in which it occurs.

showa58taro wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:When cops are bad, it's all on the cops. When pieces of shit are bad, it's all on the cops. Pretty straight forward.

The cops are the reason that the bad increasingly occurs and is left to spiral out of control. They didn’t do the bad directlynevery time but they set up the scenario in which it occurs.

Bit of a paradox isn't it. They're the reason the bad occurs but they're supposed to stop it.

Headhunter wrote:I didn't think people would trip themselves up over the O.J. example. Pretty clear what happened, yet black America was skeptical at best. Why?

Black America cheered when he got away with it. If that isn't racism, I don't know what is.

showa58taro wrote:

Jason wrote:It's the cops faults that OJ killed folks and got away with it.

Poor Orange Juice.

It’s their fault that there was doubt in many people’s minds.

Lulzy

You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

showa58taro wrote:The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

Uhh, yeah, no, "trained to be antagonistic" is such a weak label to put on cops when they're trained to prepare for the worst. Imagine being a cop, seeing someone with limousine-tinted windows and having to pull them over. How vulnerable that cop is to ANYTHING. You're completely lacking empathy, here.

Gun reform is just fucking stupid. Absolutely... fucking stupid...

showa58taro wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:When cops are bad, it's all on the cops. When pieces of shit are bad, it's all on the cops. Pretty straight forward.

The cops are the reason that the bad increasingly occurs and is left to spiral out of control. They didn’t do the bad directlynevery time but they set up the scenario in which it occurs.

Without police, we would be in absolute chaos. Imagine no police and gun control. This is Hiter's dream come true. Just him and the boys, cruisin' around poppin' Jews...

Reign in Blood wrote:

showa58taro wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:When cops are bad, it's all on the cops. When pieces of shit are bad, it's all on the cops. Pretty straight forward.

The cops are the reason that the bad increasingly occurs and is left to spiral out of control. They didn’t do the bad directlynevery time but they set up the scenario in which it occurs.

Bit of a paradox isn't it. They're the reason the bad occurs but they're supposed to stop it.

Yes and no. The reform should inculcate trust enabling them to be trusted and do their job at which point they get called more and seen as help rather than exacerbation. But at first that’s absolutely the problem. They are needed but not wanted but to become wanted they need to be used when needed.

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

Uhh, yeah, no, "trained to be antagonistic" is such a weak label to put on cops when they're trained to prepare for the worst. Imagine being a cop, seeing someone with limousine-tinted windows and having to pull them over. How vulnerable that cop is to ANYTHING. You're completely lacking empathy, here.

Gun reform is just fucking stupid. Absolutely... fucking stupid...

Why are you “having to pull them over” and why are you assuming there is an issue? That’s the training you need.

Seb, come to America. I will harbor you as an illegal alien and the culture will be so much cooler than that Euro leftist socialist stuff. It will take some getting used to, but you will have a different perspective, methinks.

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

Uhh, yeah, no, "trained to be antagonistic" is such a weak label to put on cops when they're trained to prepare for the worst. Imagine being a cop, seeing someone with limousine-tinted windows and having to pull them over. How vulnerable that cop is to ANYTHING. You're completely lacking empathy, here.

Gun reform is just fucking stupid. Absolutely... fucking stupid...

As an obvious example, your police spend way more time in shooting, combat and lethal force training than the rest of us. They get near no training in unconscious bias, de-escalation, negotiation and community policing. Thus they are relatively prepared to shoot and break down doors, but not to police.

Jason wrote:Seb, come to America. I will harbor you as an illegal alien and the culture will be so much cooler than that Euro leftist socialist stuff. It will take some getting used to, but you will have a different perspective, methinks.

I really won’t. It’s principles at play not how I feel in a specific town and time of day.

showa58taro wrote:

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

Uhh, yeah, no, "trained to be antagonistic" is such a weak label to put on cops when they're trained to prepare for the worst. Imagine being a cop, seeing someone with limousine-tinted windows and having to pull them over. How vulnerable that cop is to ANYTHING. You're completely lacking empathy, here.

Gun reform is just fucking stupid. Absolutely... fucking stupid...

Why are you “having to pull them over” and why are you assuming there is an issue? That’s the training you need.

Limousine tint on front windows is illegal. Half the cars I see have them, but it is illegal. How would you handle a situation as a police officer where perhaps you spot a stolen car with tinted windows and pull it over. Imagine the criminal driver. Does he have a gun? Passengers? Passengers with guns? How would you approach that situation?