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showa58taro wrote:

Jason wrote:Seb, come to America. I will harbor you as an illegal alien and the culture will be so much cooler than that Euro leftist socialist stuff. It will take some getting used to, but you will have a different perspective, methinks.

I really won’t. It’s principles at play not how I feel in a specific town and time of day.

You'd rather sip tea with the queen under a Brexit regime?

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:The reason you can (and should) talk about reforming the police is because in theory at least they are acrules-based and trained and educated force who currently respond the way they do because they can be excessive and let off the hook, they are trained to be antagonistic, they lack useful tools to improve the community, and they approach situations confrontationally.

And finally gun reform would inevitably help massively as the presumption that everyone has a gun must influence how police can handle situations.

Uhh, yeah, no, "trained to be antagonistic" is such a weak label to put on cops when they're trained to prepare for the worst. Imagine being a cop, seeing someone with limousine-tinted windows and having to pull them over. How vulnerable that cop is to ANYTHING. You're completely lacking empathy, here.

Gun reform is just fucking stupid. Absolutely... fucking stupid...

Why are you “having to pull them over” and why are you assuming there is an issue? That’s the training you need.

Limousine tint on front windows is illegal. Half the cars I see have them, but it is illegal. How would you handle a situation as a police officer where perhaps you spot a stolen car with tinted windows and pull it over. Imagine the criminal driver. Does he have a gun? Passengers? Passengers with guns? How would you approach that situation?

Not a clue, nobody has trained me for a day in my life on police procedure. But again it goes back to my point that at the minute the approach is as you outlined, assume it’s stolen, with armed bad guys in it, every time. Resulting in wrongful shootings. Increasing the risk of innocent (usually black) people being shot by panicked and scared police who assume every tinted window is hiding a gangster with an uzi. No training on how to de-escalate if a situation has arisen or how to ensure procedure is followed, and no efforts made to reduce those situations.

Jason wrote:

showa58taro wrote:

Jason wrote:Seb, come to America. I will harbor you as an illegal alien and the culture will be so much cooler than that Euro leftist socialist stuff. It will take some getting used to, but you will have a different perspective, methinks.

I really won’t. It’s principles at play not how I feel in a specific town and time of day.

You'd rather sip tea with the queen under a Brexit regime?

No, there’s a real chance we move to Sweden. But my points will remain as they aren’t observation but principles based.

police have to be prepared for the worst, given their job. they have to approach any situation, with the possibility that it could go wrong, because it could. because there is a risk to their lives and to others who may be there. but they should be trained to act in as calm and collected a way as they can, in a situation. make rush decisions, protect yourself, try to protect others, but don't be a bully about it. that's easier said than done, but it needs to be the guideline.

and my thing about oj and such was not about reform for the bad guys. but that isn't a bad idea in most cases too. i feel like association with the guilty party gets them off.

if oj had been a white football player who beat his wife and then she wound up dead, the black community would not have doubts even with their distrust of the cops. it was because he shared their skin color, so we need to look at ourselves and how much stock we put into identity traits, to the point that we can see a clear bad guy and cover for him or excuse him solely because he shares our skin color or whatever other identity trait.

Jason wrote:You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

this really is not the same thing. context matters.

zombie wrote:police have to be prepared for the worst, given their job. they have to approach any situation, with the possibility that it could go wrong, because it could. because there is a risk to their lives and to others who may be there. but they should be trained to act in as calm and collected a way as they can, in a situation. make rush decisions, protect yourself, try to protect others, but don't be a bully about it. that's easier said than done, but it needs to be the guideline.

and my thing about oj and such was not about reform for the bad guys. but that isn't a bad idea in most cases too. i feel like association with the guilty party gets them off.

if oj had been a white football player who beat his wife and then she wound up dead, the black community would not have doubts even with their distrust of the cops. it was because he shared their skin color, so we need to look at ourselves and how much stock we put into identity traits, to the point that we can see a clear bad guy and cover for him or excuse him solely because he shares our skin color or whatever other identity trait.

Of course there's a double standard. Because there's a double standard in the way white people and black people are policed. They don't need to stop and look at themselves, they need to be treated better.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:police have to be prepared for the worst, given their job. they have to approach any situation, with the possibility that it could go wrong, because it could. because there is a risk to their lives and to others who may be there. but they should be trained to act in as calm and collected a way as they can, in a situation. make rush decisions, protect yourself, try to protect others, but don't be a bully about it. that's easier said than done, but it needs to be the guideline.

and my thing about oj and such was not about reform for the bad guys. but that isn't a bad idea in most cases too. i feel like association with the guilty party gets them off.

if oj had been a white football player who beat his wife and then she wound up dead, the black community would not have doubts even with their distrust of the cops. it was because he shared their skin color, so we need to look at ourselves and how much stock we put into identity traits, to the point that we can see a clear bad guy and cover for him or excuse him solely because he shares our skin color or whatever other identity trait.

Of course there's a double standard. Because there's a double standard in the way white people and black people are policed. They don't need to stop and look at themselves, they need to be treated better.

they do need to be treated better. i was never arguing that.

You can't separate the skin color and distrust in cops as if it's not all the same thing. Because of the way THEY are treated by cops, they distrust cops. So yeah, it's going to be a different reaction with a white person and black person.

Headhunter wrote:You can't separate the skin color and distrust in cops as if it's not all the same thing. Because of the way THEY are treated by cops, they distrust cops. So yeah, it's going to be a different reaction with a white person and black person.

white people have also covered or excused someone that looks like them. clergy has covered or excused someone who is also clergy. cops have covered for or excused someone else who is also a cop. filmmakers and producers have covered for someone who is a producer/filmmaker. etc you're making this out to be just a black vs. cop issue when it's not entirely. and will still be a thing, even if cops treat black americans better.

Jason wrote:You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

What were you trying to do here? Might be the worst attempt at a "gotcha" I've seen.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:You can't separate the skin color and distrust in cops as if it's not all the same thing. Because of the way THEY are treated by cops, they distrust cops. So yeah, it's going to be a different reaction with a white person and black person.

white people have also covered or excused someone that looks like them. clergy has covered or excused someone who is also clergy. cops have covered for or excused someone else who is also a cop. filmmakers and producers have covered for someone who is a producer/filmmaker. etc you're making this out to be just a black vs. cop issue when it's not entirely. and will still be a thing, even if cops treat black americans better.

Can you guess why your four examples aren't comparable?

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:You can't separate the skin color and distrust in cops as if it's not all the same thing. Because of the way THEY are treated by cops, they distrust cops. So yeah, it's going to be a different reaction with a white person and black person.

white people have also covered or excused someone that looks like them. clergy has covered or excused someone who is also clergy. cops have covered for or excused someone else who is also a cop. filmmakers and producers have covered for someone who is a producer/filmmaker. etc you're making this out to be just a black vs. cop issue when it's not entirely. and will still be a thing, even if cops treat black americans better.

Can you guess why your four examples aren't comparable?

because cops don't treat them badly, i assume. and you want to keep this all focused on that exclusively.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:You can't separate the skin color and distrust in cops as if it's not all the same thing. Because of the way THEY are treated by cops, they distrust cops. So yeah, it's going to be a different reaction with a white person and black person.

white people have also covered or excused someone that looks like them. clergy has covered or excused someone who is also clergy. cops have covered for or excused someone else who is also a cop. filmmakers and producers have covered for someone who is a producer/filmmaker. etc you're making this out to be just a black vs. cop issue when it's not entirely. and will still be a thing, even if cops treat black americans better.

Can you guess why your four examples aren't comparable?

because cops don't treat them badly, i assume. and you want to keep this all focused on that exclusively.

No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

fair point. then there's nothing to argue or discuss.

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

What were you trying to do here? Might be the worst attempt at a "gotcha" I've seen.

White people need not take accusations of racism so personally and feel bad about the past. But it's OK for black people to bring it into the modern day when it doesn't exist in any form.

It's a double standard.

That, of course, made no sense at all to anyone except Jason.