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Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

What were you trying to do here? Might be the worst attempt at a "gotcha" I've seen.

White people need not take accusations of racism so personally and feel bad about the past. But it's OK for black people to bring it into the modern day when it doesn't exist in any form.

It's a double standard.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

fair point. then there's nothing to argue or discuss.

zombie wrote:

Jason wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jason wrote:You:

Headhunter wrote:It's not the skin color. It's the historical precedent of how people with that skin color are treated.

Also you:

Headhunter wrote:Which begs the question: Why. Take it. So. Personally?

You don't need to feel proxy bad for the decisions of people who are now dead.

What were you trying to do here? Might be the worst attempt at a "gotcha" I've seen.

White people need not take accusations of racism so personally and feel bad about the past. But it's OK for black people to bring it into the modern day when it doesn't exist in any form.

It's a double standard.

he wasnt talking only about slavery. the lapd didn't have anything to do with slavery.

Jason wrote:Selective memory is dangerous, kids.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

fair point. then there's nothing to argue or discuss.

Sure there is. We are pretty limited to tangible policy changes though, because people are just too irrational. We do our best.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

fair point. then there's nothing to argue or discuss.

Sure there is. We are pretty limited to tangible policy changes though, because people are just too irrational. We do our best.

Headhunter wrote:Tbh these discussions were a lot more enlightening for everyone when Foo was involved.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:No, because every group you mentioned comes from a position of either inherent or acknowledged power and that makes the dynamic too different to make a valid comp.

fair. hopefully cops will treat people better. i'll just keep re-iterating that, as anything else will get me shit.

Don't think of it as shit, think of it as my endless curiosity. That sometimes also smells bad.

endless curiosity isn't a bad thing.

my experience with police is that they can be quick to action, and pretty paranoid, even when it comes to caucasians. although pueblo has a meth problem, reportedly, so that may play a part too. it's going to be worse when they feel distrusted and antagonized by a whole community. and that community has been wronged, so feels distrust. it's going to be a spiral. and i don't think the whole answer is just to look at the cops it's not going to be enough to train the cops better, because they have to deal with something that's already been created. the distrust isn't going to go away at the flip of a switch. it's going to be push and pull. and you want all of that to fall to the cops? there are other factors to consider and address. like you said, this happens in concert. people don't act and behave in a vacuum. and cops are people too.

tribalism is not just something that happens from positions of power. and distrust of authority is not just something that happens from direct experience. it's going to be exacerbated by that, clearly. and that should be addressed and steps taken to correct it. i hope that will be enough to ease distrust and ease tensions. but i see this as bigger than that.

Thing is, there are clear and definable ways we can bring about police reform in this country to address this problem. You want people to look inwards which is fine but they probably won't and even if they do, in these situations 99% of the time they're still going to be at the mercy of however the police officer behaves, with little control themselves.

fair point. then there's nothing to argue or discuss.

Sure there is. We are pretty limited to tangible policy changes though, because people are just too irrational. We do our best.

so people are irrational, as you said. cops are people. training and accountability will help, but they're not robots. and the distrust and tensions that you feel they're solely responsible for will still be there. it's a good idea to train them to not be bullies and such. i hope, like you seem to feel, that is all that it will take to ease things out. but i don't share your optimism.

Headhunter wrote: Well, I would say don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Improvement is what's important. Admittedly it's a bit of a "The box. You opened it." situation where you can't undo everything that's already been problematic, so that residual tension is always there. But you can make things better going forward.

zombie wrote:is there any evidence that she flipped from being a conservative to being a liberal? couldn't she have always (as an adult) leaned liberal?

Jason wrote:

zombie wrote:is there any evidence that she flipped from being a conservative to being a liberal? couldn't she have always (as an adult) leaned liberal?

It's possible. Except when she was like 19 or something she posted "Republicans do it better" on her myspace page and her liberal fans outraged over it. Now the reverse is happening and I think celebrity status is about 100% of the reason why the flip occurred.

zombie wrote:ugh.. that video. i've never understood why there is a tendency to tear down every single little thing about someone because you happen to disagree with their politics. oh well.

Headhunter wrote:To be fair, nobody knows anything when they're 19.