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Foo wrote:
It won't make any difference unless you can show yourself to be a leader worth following. Not trying to be mean, but why would someone follow your advice?

i don't want anyone to follow me. i don't want to lead anyone. if i say something that resonates or makes sense to someone else, that's cool. that's the most i can ask.

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

Hopefully, yes. Because it highlights a problem that wasn’t being solved by a national anthem.

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

We do have different motives. I want a socialist country. You want a capitalist country. Both of us standing up for an anthem doesn't change that whatsoever, and more than anything, it feels like false comradery.

I don't take seriously people who take the Anthem so seriously, so there you go.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

agreed. but i'm not so sure that you're glad we live in such a place. you seem firmly to want everyone to be made to stand, based on what you've been saying.

we should work against an us vs. them mentality. and work to make things better and bring people more together, to make people feel more included, if you can.

showa58taro wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

Hopefully, yes. Because it highlights a problem that wasn’t being solved by a national anthem.

The anthem does not solve problems, it creates an atmosphere where they can be solved. It is the moment where we set aside differences.

When a person cannot set aside differences for a moment, they are sad and pathetic. You may have a difference with your neighbor, but you hopefully know to not burn down the neighborhood because of it.

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

We do have different motives. I want a socialist country. You want a capitalist country. Both of us standing up for an anthem doesn't change that whatsoever, and more than anything, it feels like false comradery.

I don't take seriously people who take the Anthem so seriously, so there you go.

Cops kill and beat the shit out of people in socialist countries. Ask a Venezuelan.

You don't think it is childish to say we cannot be united simply because we want different economic systems?

Btw, one thing is for sure, those NFL players do not want socialism when negotiating their pay.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

agreed. but i'm not so sure that you're glad we live in such a place. you seem firmly to want everyone to be made to stand, based on what you've been saying.

we should work against an us vs. them mentality. and work to make things better and bring people more together, to make people feel more included, if you can.

Again, I am not making anyone stand. Glad to know who does not respect what others have given them.

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

We do have different motives. I want a socialist country. You want a capitalist country. Both of us standing up for an anthem doesn't change that whatsoever, and more than anything, it feels like false comradery.

I don't take seriously people who take the Anthem so seriously, so there you go.

Cops kill and beat the shit out of people in socialist countries. Ask a Venezuelan.

You don't think it is childish to say we cannot be united simply because we want different economic systems?

Btw, one thing is for sure, those NFL players do not want socialism when negotiating their pay.

What's "united" mean if not fighting for a common goal?

And since I never said those NFL players wanted socialism, I'm in agreement with you. That said, a nationalized sporting industry would certainly be a fantastic idea.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

people should stand together, because that's how they feel. they shouldn't stand, because to do otherwise is condemned.

If they don't have respect to stand, I am glad we live in a place where it can be clearly seen.

Think for a moment why a sporting event is where you would hear the anthem. Despite whatever struggles take place on the field that day, it is a reminder we are all Americans and all at least have that common ground.

When that common ground starts to dissolve, what is left? Is police violence going to improve by adopting an "us vs. them" attitude? By not showing respect to your family, friends, and neighbors?

agreed. but i'm not so sure that you're glad we live in such a place. you seem firmly to want everyone to be made to stand, based on what you've been saying.

we should work against an us vs. them mentality. and work to make things better and bring people more together, to make people feel more included, if you can.

Again, I am not making anyone stand. Glad to know who does not respect what others have given them.

also, good to know who thinks that not standing means not respecting those things.

it's worth working to bring people together. making them proud of the country, and to stand with you. i don't know that a song played at a ball game will do that. but it's good that most of those attending do want to stand together.

Jigster, I get you don't like the way the country is ran, and you dislike capitalism and want socialism and all that, but do you know anyone who has ever served in the American military or any family and friends that died in it?

Reign in Blood wrote:Jigster, I get you don't like the way the country is ran, and you dislike capitalism and want socialism and all that, but do you know anyone who has ever served in the American military or any family and friends that died in it?

Yes. my grandfather was in WWII and my father was at training camp, but got sick, and had to leave (much to his disappointment).

Also, some high school friends also went the military route, because from their perspective, they had no other choice. What a great thing. *rolls eyes*

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

We do have different motives. I want a socialist country. You want a capitalist country. Both of us standing up for an anthem doesn't change that whatsoever, and more than anything, it feels like false comradery.

I don't take seriously people who take the Anthem so seriously, so there you go.

Cops kill and beat the shit out of people in socialist countries. Ask a Venezuelan.

You don't think it is childish to say we cannot be united simply because we want different economic systems?

Btw, one thing is for sure, those NFL players do not want socialism when negotiating their pay.

What's "united" mean if not fighting for a common goal?

And since I never said those NFL players wanted socialism, I'm in agreement with you. That said, a nationalized sporting industry would certainly be a fantastic idea.

So you are gonna sit because you want socialism, players are gonna sit because of police violence, trannies are gonna sit because of bathrooms, and zombie is gonna sit because firefly was cancelled. Everyone is sitting. Now what?

Jiggy, do you realize that your lack of respect and unity is the exact opposite of the socialism you desire?

Who is gonna agree to give you free shit without a sense of unity?

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Foo wrote:If we as Americans cannot stand together for a simple moment of unity and respect, there is no hope. We are devolving into classless, selfish fools.

Why would we stand for unity in a country that doesn't care about unity? That makes no sense. If someone wants to respect the flag, or the anthem, go ahead and do so. But that's an individual's choice - it shouldn't be expected of anyone.

The "country" is you and me. It is the people. When you cannot show a basic level of respect to others and show that despite our differences we all want what is best for each other, it is hard to take seriously.

It's like anything, you have a project and someone offers advice, how much weight do you give he advice when you learn the guy doesn't care about you or your project? Or that he has a different motive than yours?

We do have different motives. I want a socialist country. You want a capitalist country. Both of us standing up for an anthem doesn't change that whatsoever, and more than anything, it feels like false comradery.

I don't take seriously people who take the Anthem so seriously, so there you go.

Cops kill and beat the shit out of people in socialist countries. Ask a Venezuelan.

You don't think it is childish to say we cannot be united simply because we want different economic systems?

Btw, one thing is for sure, those NFL players do not want socialism when negotiating their pay.

What's "united" mean if not fighting for a common goal?

And since I never said those NFL players wanted socialism, I'm in agreement with you. That said, a nationalized sporting industry would certainly be a fantastic idea.

So you are gonna sit because you want socialism, players are gonna sit because of police violence, trannies are gonna sit because of bathrooms, and zombie is gonna sit because firefly was cancelled. Everyone is sitting. Now what?

I don't even understand the question. How can people who want fundamentally different things using fundamentally different methods be united over the same thing?

I think you have great taste insofar as horror movies are concerned. I can unite with you over that. But over how we see this country, or what we want out of it? I don't see how two people with such a different viewpoint could "unite" over it unless "unite" loses all meaning as I understand it.

Foo wrote:Jiggy, do you realize that your lack of respect and unity is the exact opposite of the socialism you desire?

Who is gonna agree to give you free shit without a sense of unity?

I have respect for all my fellow people (in the world, not just the US). But I'm not going to unify under a flag or a country that I don't agree with - false unity isn't going to get us anywhere.

So no, taking a stand against standing for a patriotic moment is not going against unity or respect in any relevant way I see insofar as my beliefs are concerned.

Jigsaw wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:Jigster, I get you don't like the way the country is ran, and you dislike capitalism and want socialism and all that, but do you know anyone who has ever served in the American military or any family and friends that died in it?

Yes. my grandfather was in WWII and my father was at training camp, but got sick, and had to leave (much to his disappointment).

Also, some high school friends also went the military route, because from their perspective, they had no other choice. What a great thing. *rolls eyes*

Why are you rolling your eyes? Because of their ignorance? You and millions of others prove that was not their only choice. But luckily their own perspective and feelings led them to that choice, versus being forced into it like a lot other countries do with any able bodied male at their disposal.

I thank your grandfather for his service and will gladly stand to salute him and what he sacrificed for us, btw.

Reign in Blood wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:

Reign in Blood wrote:Jigster, I get you don't like the way the country is ran, and you dislike capitalism and want socialism and all that, but do you know anyone who has ever served in the American military or any family and friends that died in it?

Yes. my grandfather was in WWII and my father was at training camp, but got sick, and had to leave (much to his disappointment).

Also, some high school friends also went the military route, because from their perspective, they had no other choice. What a great thing. *rolls eyes*

Why are you rolling your eyes? Because of their ignorance? You and millions of others prove that was not their only choice. But luckily their own perspective and feelings led them to that choice, versus being forced into it like a lot other countries do with any able bodied male at their disposal.

I thank your grandfather for his service and will gladly stand to salute him and what he sacrificed for us, btw.

Truth be told, I was pretty young when my grandfather died, so I regret to say I don't remember any of his stories, because at the time, I wasn't interested in that type of stuff. One of my bigger regrets, alas.