Trump Assassination Attempt Discussion

[zombie]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

[zombie]

This may or may not surprise anyone:

I don't really have much to say regarding most trans issues. I know some came to the left (and to be clear, by "left" I mean anti-capitalist, not Democratic) via social justice issues, which is perfectly valid. I came to be on the far-left by purely economic issues, and the social issues largely followed. I barely knew any black or gay people before college, and I only met trans people (at least people I knew were trans) at college, so my experience is somewhat limited.

My main point being, while I probably agree largely with zombie on these arguments, I don't have a big point to add. It's not that it's not my fight, but I admit it's not high up on my radar.

Plus, I've never watched the Olympics in my life, which may be part of it.

that's fair. i'm sure that jason and others wish that i didn't cry about the social issues as much as i do anyways.

You're sure wrong.

Why would I wish that?

cause it can be tedious and annoying? i don't know.

I clicked on the thread, didn't I?

Personal responsibility! It's my own fault for subjecting myself to all your guyseses crazy ass anti-Trump, America hating rhetoric.

(totally joking by the way.)

a love for america forces my crazy ass anti-trump rhetoric to spill out all over you.

[Jigsaw]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

[Jason]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

The data does not reflect that surgery and drugs decreases suicidality whatsoever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

[Jason]

This may or may not surprise anyone:

I don't really have much to say regarding most trans issues. I know some came to the left (and to be clear, by "left" I mean anti-capitalist, not Democratic) via social justice issues, which is perfectly valid. I came to be on the far-left by purely economic issues, and the social issues largely followed. I barely knew any black or gay people before college, and I only met trans people (at least people I knew were trans) at college, so my experience is somewhat limited.

My main point being, while I probably agree largely with zombie on these arguments, I don't have a big point to add. It's not that it's not my fight, but I admit it's not high up on my radar.

Plus, I've never watched the Olympics in my life, which may be part of it.

that's fair. i'm sure that jason and others wish that i didn't cry about the social issues as much as i do anyways.

You're sure wrong.

Why would I wish that?

cause it can be tedious and annoying? i don't know.

I clicked on the thread, didn't I?

Personal responsibility! It's my own fault for subjecting myself to all your guyseses crazy ass anti-Trump, America hating rhetoric.

(totally joking by the way.)

a love for america forces my crazy ass anti-trump rhetoric to spill out all over you.

[Jason]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

Trump still loves you.

[Jigsaw]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

Trump still loves you.

He'd prolly deport me if he had the chance, but thanks.

[Jason]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

Trump still loves you.

He'd prolly deport me if he had the chance, but thanks.

Wouldn't you want to be deported from Indiana? I would think you'd appreciate that if anything.

[zombie]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

this doesn't read like a refutation that suicidal ideation is not in

The data does not reflect that surgery and drugs decreases suicidality whatsoever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

is this actual data on the subject or one person's theory?

"There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed."

that is the conclusion that this person reached. it reads like he feels that more data is needed, not like a refutation of the established medical diagnosis and treatment? can you copy where you feel that he states your case?

[Jason]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

this doesn't read like a refutation that suicidal ideation is not in

The data does not reflect that surgery and drugs decreases suicidality whatsoever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

is this actual data on the subject or one person's theory?

"There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed."

that is the conclusion that this person reached. it reads like he feels that more data is needed, not like a refutation of the established medical diagnosis and treatment? can you copy where you feel that he states your case?

The research in the article is based on reviewing past studies that suggest there may be a decreased risk in suicide, where no evidence was found and further studies were needed to get an accurate reading.

[Jigsaw]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

Trump still loves you.

He'd prolly deport me if he had the chance, but thanks.

Wouldn't you want to be deported from Indiana? I would think you'd appreciate that if anything.

now I have to e-mail the Trump campaign, and ask Daddy Trump to deport me, plz.

[Jason]

I'll just admit that I hate this country and move on.

Trump still loves you.

He'd prolly deport me if he had the chance, but thanks.

Wouldn't you want to be deported from Indiana? I would think you'd appreciate that if anything.

now I have to e-mail the Trump campaign, and ask Daddy Trump to deport me, plz.

Venezuela would love you!

[zombie]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

this doesn't read like a refutation that suicidal ideation is not in

The data does not reflect that surgery and drugs decreases suicidality whatsoever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

is this actual data on the subject or one person's theory?

"There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed."

that is the conclusion that this person reached. it reads like he feels that more data is needed, not like a refutation of the established medical diagnosis and treatment? can you copy where you feel that he states your case?

The research in the article is based on reviewing past studies that suggest there may be a decreased risk in suicide, where no evidence was found and further studies were needed to get an accurate reading.

this is a lot to read through, and i will. but it is one person's interpretation of selected cases. i respect his opinion as a psychiatrist but i also don't think that it represents the "data" on the subject. but it is still worth reading, even for just a single person's thoughts and research into the subject.

[Jason]

I've known several trans people in various capacities. I worked with two transmen, I've hooked up with transmen and transwomen, I had a transman in my last D&D group in florida, etc. Most are just regular ass people and should be treated as such. Claiming they all have mental disorders is just a fallacy.

I disagree. I also disagree with the insinuation that if people believe gay and trans people have mental disorders, then they shouldn't be treated as regular people. From my perspective I could argue that I care the most about trans people because I am willing to admit they have an issue mentally.

Correlating someone who has a mental issue as the same as being treated less than others is where the media began their stranglehold on this topic, in my opinion.

sure. it's called gender dysphoria. and it's treated best, at this moment, by social transition, blockers, hormones and surgery when you're of age.

I truly feel in my heart that it either has no change or makes it worse. The data does not reflect that whatsoever.

the data does not reflect what? and state your source?

this doesn't read like a refutation that suicidal ideation is not in

The data does not reflect that surgery and drugs decreases suicidality whatsoever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10027312/

is this actual data on the subject or one person's theory?

"There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed."

that is the conclusion that this person reached. it reads like he feels that more data is needed, not like a refutation of the established medical diagnosis and treatment? can you copy where you feel that he states your case?

The research in the article is based on reviewing past studies that suggest there may be a decreased risk in suicide, where no evidence was found and further studies were needed to get an accurate reading.

this is a lot to read through, and i will. but it is one person's interpretation of selected cases. i respect his opinion as a psychiatrist but i also don't think that it represents the "data" on the subject. but it is still worth reading, even for just a single person's thoughts and research into the subject.

You don't have to read all of that shit. Lol. There are other studies I could probably find but it's kind of hard to sift through googles algorithm to get certain sources.

[zombie]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

[Jason]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

What do you mean by social transition?

[zombie]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

What do you mean by social transition?

basically dressing and living into the social and cultural expectations of gender that differs from that of the body you were born into, without the blockers, hormones, or surgeries?

[Jason]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

What do you mean by social transition?

basically dressing and living into the social and cultural expectations of gender that differs from that of the body you were born into, without the blockers, hormones, or surgeries?

That would be affirmation. The root cause of the issue is the dysphoria itself, so affirming behaviors that trigger the suicidal ideation and self-harm would do nothing. But at the same time I'm sure there are very rare cases where people who were born men and want to live life as a woman by simply tucking it back and wearing a dress in public have happy lives. But in order to reach that type of mental peace that person has to acknowledge and accept within themselves that their behavior is not normal and be OK with the general public not viewing it as normal behavior. That person will also then find that while the vast majority see it as abnormal behavior, they also just don't give a shit what you do. Have at it, babygirl.

[zombie]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

What do you mean by social transition?

basically dressing and living into the social and cultural expectations of gender that differs from that of the body you were born into, without the blockers, hormones, or surgeries?

That would be affirmation. The root cause of the issue is the dysphoria itself, so affirming behaviors that trigger the suicidal ideation and self-harm would do nothing. But at the same time I'm sure there are very rare cases where people who were born men and want to live life as a woman by simply tucking it back and wearing a dress in public have happy lives. But in order to reach that type of mental peace that person has to acknowledge and accept within themselves that their behavior is not normal and be OK with the general public not viewing it as normal behavior. That person will also then find that while the vast majority see it as abnormal behavior, they also just don't give a shit what you do. Have at it, babygirl.

so the affirmation, however it comes, is what triggers the depression or suicidal ideation? i think you're kind of getting it reversed. gender dysphoria causes depression and/or suicidal ideation. affirmation is used as a way to undo the dysphoria. do you believe that's wrong?

what does gender dysphoria mean to you?'

[Jason]

okay. so you feel like medical transition should be off the table because it has either no effect or worsens depression and suicidal ideation among gender dysphotic individuals. is social transition similarly off the table in your point of view?

What do you mean by social transition?

basically dressing and living into the social and cultural expectations of gender that differs from that of the body you were born into, without the blockers, hormones, or surgeries?

That would be affirmation. The root cause of the issue is the dysphoria itself, so affirming behaviors that trigger the suicidal ideation and self-harm would do nothing. But at the same time I'm sure there are very rare cases where people who were born men and want to live life as a woman by simply tucking it back and wearing a dress in public have happy lives. But in order to reach that type of mental peace that person has to acknowledge and accept within themselves that their behavior is not normal and be OK with the general public not viewing it as normal behavior. That person will also then find that while the vast majority see it as abnormal behavior, they also just don't give a shit what you do. Have at it, babygirl.

so the affirmation, however it comes, is what triggers the depression or suicidal ideation? i think you're kind of getting it reversed. gender dysphoria causes depression and/or suicidal ideation. affirmation is used as a way to undo the dysphoria. do you believe that's wrong?

what does gender dysphoria mean to you?'

I think we are getting mixed up with how we see affirmation being applied. When I'm saying there shouldn't be affirmation when treating gender dysphoria, I'm saying there should be no affirmation in their belief system that they need to mutilate genitalia or take biologically damaging medication in order to treat themselves.