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Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though. Your politics, or even how you express them, are not the end all, be all of your character.

agreed. but the two of you tend to get personal and combative with each other, moreso than with other people on the board. have you not noticed that? has anyone else not noticed it? i could be just seeing into things that aren't really there.

Well, to my knowledge, Head's a Libertarian, and Jason's a Trumpist, so both are wrong, and what they say to each other, or the level of personal attacks, means nothing to me.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though.

maybe i'm just looking at it wrong.

I would say politics should be treated as being an independent entity only to be observed and analyzed in direct context when you're measuring the content of someone's character, so long as the person doesn't believe in explicitly evil shit. Some of the nicest people I know have views that I consider abhorrent.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though. Your politics, or even how you express them, are not the end all, be all of your character.

agreed. but the two of you tend to get personal and combative with each other, moreso than with other people on the board. have you not noticed that? has anyone else not noticed it? i could be just seeing into things that aren't really there.

Oh, no that's definitely a reality and people would be crazy not to notice it. That doesn't mean I'm going to respond to some random chat post where he announces he's going to the movies by calling him a dumb shit.

Jigsaw wrote:Well, to my knowledge, Head's a Libertarian, and Jason's a Trumpist, so both are wrong, and what they say to each other, or the level of personal attacks, means nothing to me.

Ex-Libertarian tbh

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though.

maybe i'm just looking at it wrong.

I would say politics should be treated as being an independent entity only to be observed and analyzed in direct context when you're measuring the content of someone's character, so long as the person doesn't believe in explicitly evil shit. Some of the nicest people I know have views that I consider abhorrent.

do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though. Your politics, or even how you express them, are not the end all, be all of your character.

agreed. but the two of you tend to get personal and combative with each other, moreso than with other people on the board. have you not noticed that? has anyone else not noticed it? i could be just seeing into things that aren't really there.

Oh, no that's definitely a reality and people would be crazy not to notice it. That doesn't mean I'm going to respond to some random chat post where he announces he's going to the movies by calling him a dumb shit.

no, and he won't to you either. it comes first out of political disagreement.

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote: Oh, sure. Your experiences in the world necessarily play a role in how your ideology develops. But that shouldn't mean limiting your worldview to a totally myopic state, where the only evidence you ever need comes from personal anecdotes. They should be a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. Certainly not at the expense of acknowledging hard data, research beyond your expertise etc.

no, you're right that your experiences should not be the end all be all of your world view. it can be just hard to look past, with certain circumstances. jason should try. but it's not worth picking him apart as a person. i think that will just make him more embittered or more biased. and he shouldn't pick you apart as a person either, so much. i see that tendency with the both of you in particular for some reason.

I'm not picking him apart as a person, though.

maybe i'm just looking at it wrong.

I would say politics should be treated as being an independent entity only to be observed and analyzed in direct context when you're measuring the content of someone's character, so long as the person doesn't believe in explicitly evil shit. Some of the nicest people I know have views that I consider abhorrent.

do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

They are good company to be around and do good things for other people. That's what counts to me.

Headhunter wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:Well, to my knowledge, Head's a Libertarian, and Jason's a Trumpist, so both are wrong, and what they say to each other, or the level of personal attacks, means nothing to me.

Ex-Libertarian tbh

what changed?

zombie wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Jigsaw wrote:Well, to my knowledge, Head's a Libertarian, and Jason's a Trumpist, so both are wrong, and what they say to each other, or the level of personal attacks, means nothing to me.

Ex-Libertarian tbh

what changed?

Me.

Headhunter wrote: They are good company to be around and do good things for other people. That's what counts to me.

good company and good to other people. (as long as it's all other people, or not bad to some other people at least) is pretty much the best you can ask for.

I used to be more liberal than Jiggy. One of the reasons I am so fond of him.

Foo wrote:I used to be more liberal than Jiggy. One of the reasons I am so fond of him.

Nothing wrong with your politics evolving in lockstep with your priorities. I moved from center-right to center-left. I may end up far left in 10 years, we'll see where life takes me.

zombie wrote:
do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

Everyone does this, me and you included. It is part of being in a society.

I would say the idealism has been all but sapped out of my system, so I can't in good conscience live in a Libertarian fantasy world anymore even though the ideas themselves are noble. I am pretty much a total pragmatist at this point and am more willing to swallow ideological objections.

Headhunter wrote:

Foo wrote:I used to be more liberal than Jiggy. One of the reasons I am so fond of him.

Nothing wrong with your politics evolving in lockstep with your priorities. I moved from center-right to center-left. I may end up far left in 10 years, we'll see where life takes me.

You know the analogy about the political spectrum being a horseshoe rather than a straight line? As long as you stay out of the gap, it is all good.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:
do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

Everyone does this, me and you included. It is part of being in a society.

i don't really try to push my views onto you, and i would never take away rights or freedoms from you because you don't share all or any of my views.

i do try to get you to be more understanding of other people and their views and rights/freedoms though, when i feel like you're not. (perhaps wrongly so)

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:
do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

Everyone does this, me and you included. It is part of being in a society.

i don't really try to push my views onto you, and i would never take away rights or freedoms from you because you don't share all or any of my views.

i do try to get you to be more understanding of other people and their views and rights/freedoms though, when i feel like you're not. (perhaps wrongly so)

Would you ever vote for or advocate for any sort of tax increase? At some point in our lives, we have all pontificated that something "ought to be illegal".

Foo wrote:

Headhunter wrote:

Foo wrote:I used to be more liberal than Jiggy. One of the reasons I am so fond of him.

Nothing wrong with your politics evolving in lockstep with your priorities. I moved from center-right to center-left. I may end up far left in 10 years, we'll see where life takes me.

You know the analogy about the political spectrum being a horseshoe rather than a straight line? As long as you stay out of the gap, it is all good.

True, and I really shouldn't frame it as "far left", what I'm really describing is just solidly left. I think the natural assumption is that all your beliefs aligning with either liberal or conservative ideas makes you "far right/left", it really just means you're solidly in one base or the other. It's the extreme solutions and desire for some totalitarian controlling force that makes you an extremist, and those people are pretty weird.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:
do those nicest people try to make other people share their abhorrent views? do they try to take away rights or freedoms of people that don't share their views? (abhorrent or not) i think that is ultimately the show of a person's character, rather than what they believe politically.

Everyone does this, me and you included. It is part of being in a society.

i don't really try to push my views onto you, and i would never take away rights or freedoms from you because you don't share all or any of my views.

i do try to get you to be more understanding of other people and their views and rights/freedoms though, when i feel like you're not. (perhaps wrongly so)

Would you ever vote for or advocate for any sort of tax increase? At some point in our lives, we have all pontificated that something "ought to be illegal".

maybe, i guess. if you want to count voting as infringing on someone else's rights, or even taking them away, then how can you possibly object to people protesting or even rioting against that infringement? how can you object to "not my president" or taking the knee at a game. etc, if you really feel that you are working to take rights or freedoms from those people, by your vote?