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Foo wrote:Also, there is a big distinction:

Are you aware of the activity? In the case of Lucian, none of use were aware he was a violent murderer and disowned him upon learning of it. With Weinstein, many people were fully aware and ignored it. Weinstein had power, money, and influence in part because all of those aware enabled him.

And yes, that includes many of the so-called victims. If you take the career advancement in exchange for the sex or even the silence, are you a victim at all?

first: it initially looked like you were linking weinstein to all feminists and all democrats? not just to obama and the clintons and gloria allred or whoever he knows personally. (and even then i think it's a stretch unless they were actively aiding him in the harassment, or knew about it and gave him cover to allow him to do it)

second: yes, i think that ashley judd, and others, are probably victims in this. she's an actrees, that is her career. if harvey weinstein uses his power and influence within that community as leverage to force himself on her and keep her silent about it, then she is a victim. i don't know how else to spin that?

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:Also, there is a big distinction:

Are you aware of the activity? In the case of Lucian, none of use were aware he was a violent murderer and disowned him upon learning of it. With Weinstein, many people were fully aware and ignored it. Weinstein had power, money, and influence in part because all of those aware enabled him.

And yes, that includes many of the so-called victims. If you take the career advancement in exchange for the sex or even the silence, are you a victim at all?

first: it initially looked like you were linking weinstein to all feminists and all democrats? not just to obama and the clintons and gloria allred or whoever he knows personally. (and even then i think it's a stretch unless they were actively aiding him in the harassment, or knew about it and gave him cover to allow him to do it)

second: yes, i think that ashley judd, and others, are probably victims in this. she's an actrees, that is her career. if harvey weinstein uses his power and influence within that community as leverage to force himself on her and keep her silent about it, then she is a victim. i don't know how else to spin that?

I guess it depends on how you feel about prostitution. When someone consents to sexual favors for money or advancement, that is where they fall.

Personally, I think prostitution is a form of rape, but I also think Weinstein himself was exploited in some of these instances. It is a shit show all around.

Foo wrote:
I guess it depends on how you feel about prostitution. When someone consents to sexual favors for money or advancement, that is where they fall.

Personally, I think prostitution is a form of rape, but I also think Weinstein himself was exploited in some of these instances. It is a shit show all around.

if they are told up front, and not coerced into it, sure. that's not the impression that i got with this shit.

"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
I guess it depends on how you feel about prostitution. When someone consents to sexual favors for money or advancement, that is where they fall.

Personally, I think prostitution is a form of rape, but I also think Weinstein himself was exploited in some of these instances. It is a shit show all around.

if they are told up front, and not coerced into it, sure. that's not the impression that i got with this shit.

What is coercion? Isn't it coercion any time you work for another? This is nothing new in that industry, whether it is Hugh Hefner making the girl willing to sleep with him a Playmate or Alfred Hitchcock giving a woman a part, or Harvey Weinstein promising a career upgrade. It is not different than a million other forms of rape and prostitution.

The dudes are scumbags, the chicks who participate or are enablers are scumbags, all the people who knew and looked the other way are scumbags. Hollywood is a cesspool.

zombie wrote:"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

Why put prostitution in quotes? Since when are prostitutes normally on equal footing with their Johns?

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
I guess it depends on how you feel about prostitution. When someone consents to sexual favors for money or advancement, that is where they fall.

Personally, I think prostitution is a form of rape, but I also think Weinstein himself was exploited in some of these instances. It is a shit show all around.

if they are told up front, and not coerced into it, sure. that's not the impression that i got with this shit.

What is coercion? Isn't it coercion any time you work for another? This is nothing new in that industry, whether it is Hugh Hefner making the girl willing to sleep with him a Playmate or Alfred Hitchcock giving a woman a part, or Harvey Weinstein promising a career upgrade. It is not different than a million other forms of rape and prostitution.

The dudes are scumbags, the chicks who participate or are enablers are scumbags, all the people who knew and looked the other way are scumbags. Hollywood is a cesspool.

i'll agree that there is a lot of manipulation going on, and there are a lot of scumbags. but there are victims too.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
I guess it depends on how you feel about prostitution. When someone consents to sexual favors for money or advancement, that is where they fall.

Personally, I think prostitution is a form of rape, but I also think Weinstein himself was exploited in some of these instances. It is a shit show all around.

if they are told up front, and not coerced into it, sure. that's not the impression that i got with this shit.

What is coercion? Isn't it coercion any time you work for another? This is nothing new in that industry, whether it is Hugh Hefner making the girl willing to sleep with him a Playmate or Alfred Hitchcock giving a woman a part, or Harvey Weinstein promising a career upgrade. It is not different than a million other forms of rape and prostitution.

The dudes are scumbags, the chicks who participate or are enablers are scumbags, all the people who knew and looked the other way are scumbags. Hollywood is a cesspool.

i'll agree that there is a lot of manipulation going on, and there are a lot of scumbags. but there are victims too.

Actually, I am sure there are. The unknowns who took a meeting with him, got harassed, and ended up with nothing. The famous ones who participated and celebrated him are scum. They knew.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

Why put prostitution in quotes? Since when are prostitutes normally on equal footing with their Johns?

cause i don't exactly see that as prostitution, but it can be looked at in that way.

if you force the prostitute into your car, and then throw some money at her after you're done, that would be rape. if you offer her money on the corner, and she goes with you, then it's prostitution.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

Why put prostitution in quotes? Since when are prostitutes normally on equal footing with their Johns?

cause i don't exactly see that as prostitution, but it can be looked at in that way.

if you force the prostitute into your car, and then throw some money at her after you're done, that would be rape. if you offer her money on the corner, and she goes with you, then it's prostitution.

Prostitution is always coerced. There are certainly degrees, but it is always coerced. That is why it is a form of rape.

Foo wrote:
Actually, I am sure there are. The unknowns who took a meeting with him, got harassed, and ended up with nothing. The famous ones who participated and celebrated him are scum. They knew.

"celebrated him" ? what do you mean? if they were famous at the time, and knew what they were getting into, and then twisted it to frame themselves as victims.. then they are absolutely scum. but we don't know when it happened that way and when it didn't, for sure.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

Why put prostitution in quotes? Since when are prostitutes normally on equal footing with their Johns?

cause i don't exactly see that as prostitution, but it can be looked at in that way.

if you force the prostitute into your car, and then throw some money at her after you're done, that would be rape. if you offer her money on the corner, and she goes with you, then it's prostitution.

Prostitution is always coerced. There are certainly degrees, but it is always coerced. That is why it is a form of rape.

i guess we're gonna have to disagree.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Actually, I am sure there are. The unknowns who took a meeting with him, got harassed, and ended up with nothing. The famous ones who participated and celebrated him are scum. They knew.

"celebrated him" ? what do you mean? if they were famous at the time, and knew what they were getting into, and then twisted it to frame themselves as victims.. then they are absolutely scum. but we don't know when it happened that way and when it didn't, for sure.

If you were in that industry, and it was well known that a person in a position of great power had a reputation for these activities, what would you do?

You don't think many of the A-listers who were thanking him at awards shows knew?

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:"i''ll suck your dick to be in ted 2" <-- attempted "prostitution", cause they were on equal footing and one did not have power over the other. that's the difference, at least as it's been presented.

Why put prostitution in quotes? Since when are prostitutes normally on equal footing with their Johns?

cause i don't exactly see that as prostitution, but it can be looked at in that way.

if you force the prostitute into your car, and then throw some money at her after you're done, that would be rape. if you offer her money on the corner, and she goes with you, then it's prostitution.

Prostitution is always coerced. There are certainly degrees, but it is always coerced. That is why it is a form of rape.

i guess we're gonna have to disagree.

When is prostitution not rape? Does rape only happen through physical violence?

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
Actually, I am sure there are. The unknowns who took a meeting with him, got harassed, and ended up with nothing. The famous ones who participated and celebrated him are scum. They knew.

"celebrated him" ? what do you mean? if they were famous at the time, and knew what they were getting into, and then twisted it to frame themselves as victims.. then they are absolutely scum. but we don't know when it happened that way and when it didn't, for sure.

If you were in that industry, and it was well known that a person in a position of great power had a reputation for these activities, what would you do?

You don't think many of the A-listers who were thanking him at awards shows knew?

i would meet them in public, or among friends, until i had an idea of the type of person they were. did harvey always have that reputation? it seems like it is just coming out now. though, it's probably likely that that is just for us. that it was known for a while in hollywood circles, but for how long though? there is always gonna be a time when it's not well known. there is always going to be a first or firsts.

i thought you were talking about the accusers celebrating him. like ashley judd, as the one that i'm the most aware of.

Foo wrote:
When is prostitution not rape? Does rape only happen through physical violence?

physical violence as in forcing sex and/or groping etc. yeah. i don't see how it can be rape without that. but you can coerce and manipulate them into it without violence, for sure.

prostitution is not rape, when it's consensual. it's the difference between inviting someone to your home, and that someone breaking in or forcing their way in, without your consent.

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
When is prostitution not rape? Does rape only happen through physical violence?

physical violence as in forcing sex and/or groping etc. yeah. i don't see how it can be rape without that. but you can coerce and manipulate them into it without violence, for sure.

prostitution is not rape, when it's consensual. it's the difference between inviting someone to your home, and that someone breaking in or forcing their way in, without your consent.

If a desperate, starving homeless person comes to you for food, and you state you will help them in exchange for sex, is that prostitution or rape? Is sex with a child not rape, even if the child agrees? Sex with a retarded person?

Incest:Family::Prostitution:Community

Prostitution is about as consensual as slavery.

Foo wrote:

zombie wrote:

Foo wrote:
When is prostitution not rape? Does rape only happen through physical violence?

physical violence as in forcing sex and/or groping etc. yeah. i don't see how it can be rape without that. but you can coerce and manipulate them into it without violence, for sure.

prostitution is not rape, when it's consensual. it's the difference between inviting someone to your home, and that someone breaking in or forcing their way in, without your consent.

If a desperate, starving homeless person comes to you for food, and you state you will help them in exchange for sex, is that prostitution or rape? Is sex with a child not rape, even if the child agrees? Sex with a retarded person?

if that desperate starving homeless person comes to you asking for help, and offers sex in return, i could see that as prostitution of a sort. but if you coerce her into it, that is essentially rape. the other examples you gave are rape too.